WEBVTT

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I'm at

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Ginni Media Studios building in New York City.

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It's great to be here.

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This is the entrance to the gorgeous building.

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Looks like they're all already in the, the fall
mood here in the building.

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But, uh, this is the building where I'm gonna do
this week's New Media Show.

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So let's go in and experience this

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Hello.

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This is the studio for the New Media Show, and
that must be Ginni.

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<v Ginni>Hi, Rob.</v>

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Yes.

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<v Ginni>Great to meet you, Rob.</v>

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It's great to be here.

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I'll shake your hand on the phone.

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Well, welcome to the New Media Show.

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So, who wins content discovery is the big
question

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we're gonna address today.

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A creator can publish a podcast, a video, short
clip, or a newsletter, and a bunch

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of other stuff that can be created, a highlight
video and all sorts of

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stuff that AI is helping people with.

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But how do those pieces work together and to
build an audience and a business?

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So I'm, uh, Rob Greenlee,

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I've been doing this show for 14 years now, so
I'm excited to be back.

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I've got a terrific guest with me.

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Really, the big question that we're gonna talk
about today is what wins content

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discovery when creators can reach people across
so many different platforms, and

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And how much of that audience relationship can
the creator keep

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under their direct contact with?

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And I think that's the big leverage that can
come from a newsletter

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and capturing an email address.

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But podcasting in the creator economy,

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has distribution across video, social platforms,

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newsletters, like I said, and AI.

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And the link between discovery and,

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holding onto that audience is really, at the end
of the day,

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what we all need to think about.

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So stay with me here.

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Let's get into it.

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<v Intro narrator>Welcome to the New Media Show</v>

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<v Intro narrator>with human host and Podcast Hall of Famer Rob
Greenlee.</v>

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[Intro music]

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So the New Media Show has a supporter

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membership plans now starting at $5 a month.

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So just go to newmediashow.com/support.

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And I also have higher level packages too that
include some consulting

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with me if you want to do that.

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And,

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thank you for keeping this show alive after 14
years.

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It's, uh,

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project that I took on after my co-host, Todd
Cochrane,

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from Blubrry passed away.

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And so I, I'm excited to be here in New York
City at a, a in-person studio.

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I've been doing that more here lately at the
Ginni Media Studio in New York City.

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And this, as you can see, this is a, a studio
session, but if you're

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listening to this, you probably wouldn't know
one way or the other.

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But but if you wanted to see more information
about, uh, this studio, go

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to ginnimediastudios.com, and I'm gonna put up
on the screen the actual URL, um,

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so you can see that.

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Uh, but it's G-I-N-N-I mediastudios.com So I'm
excited to be joined by Neil Mody

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Woo-hoo … who's the CEO and co-founder of
Headliner- … uh, who helps podcasters

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create and promote audio and video content

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online

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And he did, uh, just recently ask an interesting
question online how podcast

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platforms can compete with YouTube on

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side.

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So, oh, and I wanted to mention, too, if you
wanted to go check out Headliner,

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just go to headliner.app or ed- headliner

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So Neil, welcome to the New Media Show.

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Oh,

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thanks, Rob.

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Uh, it's great to be here.

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I think this is my first time on your show.

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I think so.

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Although we've- I think so … we've spoken at
least for, like, fi- f-

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five-plus years, I think, from your

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Oh,

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yeah

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back at Libsyn

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and- Lots and lots of content, uh, podcasting
conferences.

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Yes, yes, yes.

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Uh, always a pleasure to meet you and, and talk
to you and,

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uh, and thanks for having me on.

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Yeah, it's great to be here and, and helping me
get this,

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this in-person studio set up.

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I- Yes … it's awesome to, to do these kind of
productions.

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It's quite different than, like you mentioned a
few minutes

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ago, we were talking about StreamYard and how,
you know-

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Oh, I can't say what I said back then.

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No, no, no, no.

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It's always good to do it in person, and I think
that, that we're, we're gonna be

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talking about video, and I think that's, uh, you
know, some of the value of some

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podcasts a- as well, just capturing some of the
in-person stuff.

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And the, and the studio's great.

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Anyone need a space in New York, yeah, like, uh,
Rob said, Ginny, on 40…

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What are we, on 45th Street, I think?

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Yeah.

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40… Yeah, West 45th, I think.

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45th.

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West

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45th.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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So- So it's, it's only like a 13-minute walk
from Grand

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Yeah

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… if you land in New York.

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And

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probably the same from Penn Station, too.

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Right.

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It's pretty close.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Definitely.

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But let's l- let's get into it.

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You mentioned about, uh, YouTube-

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Yes

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… and its importance for discovering now.

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The 800-pound

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gorilla.

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Right, right.

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And, you know- … we, we've been talking about
YouTube for years.

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Forever.

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So it's not something that's new.

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I know I, uh, I've been tracking what YouTube's
been doing with podcasting,

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2014.

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Mm-hmm.

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Even though they, they started, you know, about
the

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Mm.

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It's just that it didn't have… Back in the early
era of

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podcasting, it, video wasn't a

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thing.

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Yeah.

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Until we hit about, uh, probably- 2009 or so
when

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video podcasting

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Mm.

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Um, but and increasingly after about 2009,

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YouTube's role in podcasting

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really started

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to develop.

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And

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actually, YouTube had a little bit of a
podcasting team back in 2014,

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just that it's not publicly known.

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Mm.

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' Cause I, I worked with them.

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This is… Oh, and this is b- when Google pod- So
Google had

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the Google podcasting team-

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And I worked

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with the Google podcast team too

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which was separate, which was separate from
YouTube.

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Right.

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Right.

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And so this was even before that.

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Correct.

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I imagine, yeah.

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Well, I mean, look, uh, you know, one of the
most famous podcasts

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there is Joe Rogan's show.

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Uh, keeping, you know, your political slants
aside, it's still

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one of the biggest, biggest shows out there, has
been on YouTube.

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And, and I think, uh, many, many creators

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now

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think of YouTube as their main platform.

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And- Yeah, they do.

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Yeah … and that's, I think you reached out
because I basically, you know,

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like, we've, we at Headliner have been, like,
first getting the disclaimers

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out Team YouTube for f- probably since our- I
know … our beginning.

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Right.

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Right?

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I know.

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So, so what we figured out early on was that
audio is kind of a second-class

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citizen on the internet Okay.

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And the internet is a visual medium.

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People are looking at screens to make choices.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then they can go into, uh, a consumption
mode-

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Right

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… where they're listening.

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But the decision criteria is generally a visual
one, as opposed to the

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radio, which is a little less so.

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Uh-huh.

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Right?

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And I think that difference had basically driven
that wedge that made visual really

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important for podcasting- Yeah … versus

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right?

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And, and so we've been Team YouTube since the
beginning, uh, trying to

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get all the audio shows up to YouTube since
2000… I think we s- we

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really sat in, like, 2019, I believe.

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Yeah.

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And back in, in the post I wrote, uh, YouTube
used to be a bad word.

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We had podcasters who, who basically were very
negative on the feature.

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So there was… It was very polarizing.

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Mm-hmm.

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It was kind of two camps.

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There was a camp that said, "Hey, uh, this is
amazing. Uh, I get

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all my stuff up to YouTube."

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Yeah.

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You know, we built automation for it.

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It was pretty much a seamless way to get all
your audio up to YouTube.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, in fact, YouTube even released a tool, uh,
to show you how, how

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they wanted to get all the audio.

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Again, we're kind of predating video podcasting.

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Yeah.

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But, uh, late 2000-teens and early two thou- uh,
2020s, get

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all this audio up to YouTube.

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So there were two camps: people who loved it,
and then people

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who were absolutely against

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as- Yeah … a destination platform.

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And I think there's still some holdouts.

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Yeah.

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Oh, I'm sure there is.

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Uh, and you probably know them more than me.

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Yeah.

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But, um, but we were educating people, I think,
on, on the merits of YouTube.

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Yeah.

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Which I think has kind of shown up, uh,
definitely with

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this wave of video podcasting.

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But I would say even for audio, there's still
some, uh, naysayers and people

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arguing about, "Oh, you're not gonna get as many
views on YouTube for your

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audiograms or your static image, image videos"
Mm-hmm … and so on, but

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they're missing some of the value that

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YouTube provides

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Well, that and also YouTube launched their
YouTube Music platform too-

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Mm-hmm … which, which maybe changed the
conversation a little bit about audio

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on, on

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on, the YouTube platform.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, you know, I think audio is one of those
topics

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talked about

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You know, I think it's had a- a pretty negative
impact on the,

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uh, overall

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kind of

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media podcasting content

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because-

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Mm-hmm.

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What's, what's had a negative

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impact?

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Well, it's, it's lack of focus on it.

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Oh,

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okay.

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Right.

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And- How

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audio's being overlooked

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… right.

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And it's-

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yeah

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I think we went through a very early era

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where, um

00:11:06.382 --> 00:11:07.576
audio was important

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because of

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public radio.

00:11:09.789 --> 00:11:10.062
Mm-hmm.

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And th- there was a lot of creativity going on
there,

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very, very advanced productions-

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that were being done by, by the public radio

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side of things and

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creating storytelling,

00:11:22.319 --> 00:11:26.035
true crime- Mm-hmm … all those genres were, were
huge.

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And I just get a sense that there's not as much
investment

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a- anymore.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um,

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and, because there's been so much

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financial pressure

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on being able to monetize

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those things and

00:11:39.037 --> 00:11:42.723
not being able to really afford the, the
production teams that

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you need to be able to produce,

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has really put, put a crimp on it.

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I know I went to some training seminars with the
CBC up in Vancouver.

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This was probably back

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in like 2018, something

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like that.

00:11:58.423 --> 00:12:02.621
They had a, a conference up there in, in
Vancouver, British

00:12:02.621 --> 00:12:04.343
Columbia about, you know,

00:12:04.722 --> 00:12:06.124
podcasting. And

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I remember going to this webinar put on by the
CBC, and they tried

00:12:12.013 --> 00:12:16.823
to teach us, uh, in like four hours how to do
one of these storytelling

00:12:17.801 --> 00:12:18.168
Hmm.

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And with- In

00:12:18.766 --> 00:12:19.477
four hours.

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Yeah, and the complexity of it was- Yeah … I
mean, people walked out

00:12:23.166 --> 00:12:26.378
of this webinar- Yeah … like, their, their heads
were spinning.

00:12:26.380 --> 00:12:26.823
It's like- It's an

00:12:26.823 --> 00:12:27.444
art form.

00:12:27.466 --> 00:12:27.476
I

00:12:27.476 --> 00:12:30.669
mean- You know, it, it- Yeah … was just so
complex that there were

00:12:30.669 --> 00:12:32.911
so many tools that those creators

00:12:34.271 --> 00:12:34.464
Mm-hmm.

00:12:34.837 --> 00:12:39.216
And that's what we saw happen with, like,
Serial, and we saw this

00:12:39.231 --> 00:12:41.922
happening with these, these, um

00:12:41.922 --> 00:12:44.000
true crime podcasts, and all this stuff was

00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:44.584
just the

00:12:44.616 --> 00:12:46.553
production quality was just unbelievable.

00:12:46.955 --> 00:12:50.366
But now we're being forced into this video era
where

00:12:50.590 --> 00:12:51.153
it's probably

00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:55.788
cost-prohibitive for a creator to produce a show
like that in a video

00:12:55.930 --> 00:12:56.815
form

00:12:56.832 --> 00:12:58.387
and be able to get a return on it.

00:12:58.402 --> 00:13:02.009
Now, granted, I see on YouTube where, where,

00:13:02.948 --> 00:13:07.199
there are a lot of productions in there that are
being done at that level now

00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:09.877
that are garnering millions of views now.

00:13:10.137 --> 00:13:10.528
Mm-hmm.

00:13:10.641 --> 00:13:15.636
So maybe we are shifting back somewhat to that
storytelling era, but maybe it's

00:13:15.702 --> 00:13:18.210
coming into

00:13:18.390 --> 00:13:20.704
documentaries into YouTube

00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:22.051
or to

00:13:22.158 --> 00:13:26.619
and that may be where we were going even with
Netflix, is just

00:13:26.631 --> 00:13:28.441
these really advanced productions.

00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:31.786
Now granted, that's not really podcasting
though, so-

00:13:31.886 --> 00:13:32.351
Yeah

00:13:32.532 --> 00:13:34.602
… and that's part of the tension here.

00:13:34.602 --> 00:13:38.938
And can- w- where does podcasting really, do you
think, Neil, fit

00:13:39.461 --> 00:13:41.344
in the creator economy right now?

00:13:41.344 --> 00:13:42.212
I mean, where,

00:13:42.212 --> 00:13:42.959
I mean

00:13:43.062 --> 00:13:45.040
how much priority should we put on it?

00:13:45.040 --> 00:13:48.911
I know Apple has shifted- Mm-hmm … their, their
emphasis with

00:13:48.915 --> 00:13:52.919
HLS to deliver video and HLS- Yeah

00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:58.984
and the audio experience is shifting to the
audio from the video-

00:13:59.312 --> 00:13:59.564
Yeah

00:13:59.564 --> 00:14:00.286
… as the audio

00:14:00.582 --> 00:14:01.428
experience

00:14:01.614 --> 00:14:03.344
And I just- I mean- … feel like there's a
compromise

00:14:04.949 --> 00:14:09.870
can, can we really produce the same level of
audio quality in a

00:14:10.711 --> 00:14:12.261
audio track in a video

00:14:13.658 --> 00:14:14.258
audiences

00:14:15.927 --> 00:14:20.469
Well, I think- Taking it back to, like, the
creator's point of view-

00:14:20.481 --> 00:14:20.743
Yeah

00:14:20.743 --> 00:14:23.786
I think what we have now, and the creators I
speak to-

00:14:23.857 --> 00:14:24.155
Mm-hmm

00:14:24.155 --> 00:14:28.676
… is they don't wanna be limited to a particular
medium.

00:14:29.382 --> 00:14:29.739
Okay.

00:14:29.754 --> 00:14:30.760
Right, and that's part of- And so, and- … that

00:14:30.760 --> 00:14:32.034
creator economy-

00:14:32.048 --> 00:14:32.556
Exactly.

00:14:32.560 --> 00:14:36.531
So, so they wanna- Type of approach … be able to
write a blog post if they want.

00:14:36.541 --> 00:14:38.026
They wanna be able to put out a podcast.

00:14:38.026 --> 00:14:38.668
Or the liquid content

00:14:38.685 --> 00:14:39.558
era, Neil.

00:14:39.565 --> 00:14:39.639
That's the-

00:14:39.641 --> 00:14:42.480
Well, I think, I think it's- Yeah … I think the
liquid content

00:14:42.920 --> 00:14:46.565
touches a little bit more to, like, how to
repurpose content throughout.

00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:48.063
But I think as a creator-

00:14:48.160 --> 00:14:48.501
Mm-hmm

00:14:48.536 --> 00:14:51.209
… there might be something they wanna snap a
photo of, they

00:14:51.209 --> 00:14:51.977
might want to

00:14:51.977 --> 00:14:53.063
shoot a video of.

00:14:53.087 --> 00:14:53.460
They might- Mm

00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:57.101
wanna do a voice memo, they might wanna do an
interview, they might … The,

00:14:57.175 --> 00:15:01.220
the … They don't wanna be tied necessarily to a
particular medium.

00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:01.582
Yeah.

00:15:01.582 --> 00:15:05.773
Now, there are creators who are very happy in a
singular medium, but, but

00:15:06.352 --> 00:15:10.412
I, I feel like … I mean, look, I j- I just … You
know, last week I was in

00:15:10.414 --> 00:15:14.708
the Met and I was walking around, and you'll see
the same artist who's known

00:15:14.711 --> 00:15:17.714
for sculpture do a painting and- Yeah

00:15:17.829 --> 00:15:22.144
and, and, and, and the creativity just oozes out
of them, right?

00:15:22.154 --> 00:15:25.859
In whatever- Mm-hmm … medium that they wanna
pursue at that time.

00:15:26.263 --> 00:15:28.602
And podcasting's just another artistic form.

00:15:28.886 --> 00:15:33.990
And to your point earlier, I think what we have
right now is on the narrative side.

00:15:34.176 --> 00:15:34.504
Mm-hmm.

00:15:34.663 --> 00:15:39.467
I think the challenge is, is probably this
right-sizing of the industry, which

00:15:39.467 --> 00:15:41.442
I think has probably been flushed out.

00:15:41.467 --> 00:15:45.905
And so I'm actually looking forward to some of
these starting again.

00:15:46.001 --> 00:15:49.310
Now, keep in mind, you know, there wasn't tons
of investment when

00:15:49.312 --> 00:15:52.247
we're talking about shows of, like, Serial and,
and those things

00:15:52.248 --> 00:15:53.684
happening- Mm-hmm … at that time.

00:15:54.028 --> 00:15:54.040
Mm-hmm.

00:15:54.040 --> 00:15:56.715
And there's still a lot of good narrative shows
out there.

00:15:56.725 --> 00:16:01.220
I think what you have now is that just big money
has come into podcasting, and

00:16:01.222 --> 00:16:03.406
so the expectations have got much higher.

00:16:03.655 --> 00:16:05.214
But, but

00:16:05.550 --> 00:16:07.816
I- Yeah, but why, why have they gotten much
higher?

00:16:07.818 --> 00:16:12.387
Is it just because, uh, podcasting is being seen
as synonymous

00:16:12.388 --> 00:16:14.481
with kind of the mainstream now?

00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:15.389
Yeah, exactly.

00:16:15.389 --> 00:16:17.140
I mean, I mean, it's- I … And because of the
audience

00:16:17.140 --> 00:16:17.360
… it's where

00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:17.400
the audiences are now.

00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:17.963
Exactly.

00:16:17.964 --> 00:16:21.112
It's because of the audience- Yeah … and because
of that former investment,

00:16:21.490 --> 00:16:27.532
and because I think it's now a prize possession
across media as well, right?

00:16:27.552 --> 00:16:30.707
And so, so what you have is all these different
forces going on.

00:16:30.709 --> 00:16:33.742
I think you have creators who wanna create in
whatever medium you want.

00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:34.034
Mm-hmm.

00:16:34.034 --> 00:16:39.316
You have businesses that have either, A,
invested money, or B,

00:16:39.326 --> 00:16:43.673
even if they haven't, want high returns on
their, on their dollars.

00:16:43.723 --> 00:16:43.978
Yeah.

00:16:44.037 --> 00:16:49.206
And where monetization goes right now is
generally favoring video,

00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:54.046
unless you can get a very loyal audio listener,
which is still out there.

00:16:54.351 --> 00:16:55.868
But a hard game as well.

00:16:56.022 --> 00:16:59.426
And so, I mean, I'm no expert in this, in this
stuff.

00:16:59.426 --> 00:17:07.377
I will say- I will say what YouTube provides,
what the other platforms don't,

00:17:07.766 --> 00:17:16.037
is I think two things that really s- stand out
is one is a global audience.

00:17:16.067 --> 00:17:17.252
Like, it's just-

00:17:17.271 --> 00:17:19.014
It's the second-largest search engine, right?

00:17:19.024 --> 00:17:19.651
Exactly.

00:17:19.669 --> 00:17:20.012
Yeah.

00:17:20.015 --> 00:17:21.796
And because of that global audience.

00:17:21.801 --> 00:17:21.811
Yeah.

00:17:21.811 --> 00:17:26.975
So, so, you know, call it three billion users.

00:17:26.977 --> 00:17:31.180
I, you know, I, I know everyone's so tired of me
using the same story, but, like,

00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:34.361
the globe is eight billion people, okay?

00:17:34.899 --> 00:17:37.185
So the entire planet's eight billion.

00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:37.378
Mm-hmm.

00:17:37.378 --> 00:17:41.416
You minus out children and so on, and you've got
pretty much an addressable

00:17:41.421 --> 00:17:43.692
market of, like, six billion or so.

00:17:43.807 --> 00:17:44.148
Mm-hmm.

00:17:44.499 --> 00:17:45.857
And, and guess what?

00:17:45.990 --> 00:17:51.023
YouTube has half of them looking at it, uh, I
think on a weekly basis.

00:17:51.058 --> 00:17:53.060
Maybe even more often, okay?

00:17:53.167 --> 00:17:53.402
Yeah.

00:17:53.511 --> 00:17:55.851
So no podcast platform has that.

00:17:55.853 --> 00:18:00.443
Spotify, I think, is getting close to a billion
total across music and podcasting.

00:18:00.730 --> 00:18:03.889
They're not reporting podcast numbers anymore in
the quarterly reports- Mm-hmm

00:18:03.889 --> 00:18:04.354
I believe.

00:18:04.750 --> 00:18:08.058
So… And I think at their peak when they reported
it, it was somewhere in

00:18:08.058 --> 00:18:10.729
the 100 to 200, uh, 200 million range.

00:18:11.717 --> 00:18:12.364
Excuse me.

00:18:13.372 --> 00:18:16.213
Apple obviously has probably got similar
numbers.

00:18:16.393 --> 00:18:20.400
So you're talking about 100, 200 million on
podcasting.

00:18:20.465 --> 00:18:21.995
Total maybe a billion.

00:18:23.022 --> 00:18:24.718
Apple devices, two billion.

00:18:24.822 --> 00:18:28.466
YouTube alone is bigger than the next two
players combined.

00:18:29.025 --> 00:18:31.194
So that just gives it advantages.

00:18:31.423 --> 00:18:36.374
And then to your point around podcasting getting
bigger and more mainstream, people

00:18:36.374 --> 00:18:38.208
will just consume wherever they are.

00:18:38.452 --> 00:18:38.618
Yeah.

00:18:38.618 --> 00:18:41.008
And I, and I think people are more in YouTube
than they

00:18:41.009 --> 00:18:42.759
are in anywhere else, right?

00:18:42.805 --> 00:18:47.223
Except, except, as I pointed out in the, in the,
in the blog post, social

00:18:48.251 --> 00:18:48.427
Yeah.

00:18:48.456 --> 00:18:53.810
And that, I think, uh, is the number one
opportunity for anyone who's

00:18:53.811 --> 00:18:55.311
gonna try to fight with YouTube.

00:18:55.828 --> 00:19:02.061
Uh, again, my post was… Look, if you look at- If
you look at the last 10

00:19:02.061 --> 00:19:06.980
years in podcasting, YouTube went from a bad
word in podcasting- … literally-

00:19:06.982 --> 00:19:10.112
Oh, yeah, yeah … bad word in podcasting to the
number one player in

00:19:11.352 --> 00:19:11.685
right?

00:19:12.090 --> 00:19:12.120
Yeah.

00:19:12.120 --> 00:19:15.721
And you also had Apple, who led the space-

00:19:16.274 --> 00:19:21.242
uh, go from first to third with Spotify- Or
maybe even fourth … coming in.

00:19:21.282 --> 00:19:23.978
And maybe fourth, yeah- Yeah, depends on- …
depending on what KPIs- Yeah,

00:19:23.978 --> 00:19:25.320
exactly … and metrics you wanna look at.

00:19:25.762 --> 00:19:25.785
Yeah.

00:19:25.785 --> 00:19:26.072
Right?

00:19:26.091 --> 00:19:29.872
And so, so what you have is a pretty big shakeup
there.

00:19:30.665 --> 00:19:30.975
Right?

00:19:31.712 --> 00:19:33.925
And if you look at who's superseded-

00:19:33.935 --> 00:19:35.254
But that's all about audio,

00:19:36.367 --> 00:19:36.538
Isn't

00:19:36.538 --> 00:19:36.548
it?

00:19:36.548 --> 00:19:38.743
Audio and video, I'd say too.

00:19:38.760 --> 00:19:39.803
YouTube's advantage,

00:19:39.812 --> 00:19:39.873
I

00:19:39.873 --> 00:19:40.232
think-

00:19:41.355 --> 00:19:42.135
generational

00:19:44.024 --> 00:19:47.157
Uh, and, and then- And then you are- … platforms
that are- Yep … more favorable

00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:52.061
to the up-and-coming generation that is
increasingly creating content that appeals

00:19:53.078 --> 00:19:53.186
too.

00:19:53.192 --> 00:19:53.667
Totally.

00:19:53.811 --> 00:19:54.236
Totally.

00:19:54.236 --> 00:19:55.699
I think that's a big part of it too.

00:19:55.876 --> 00:19:56.184
Yeah.

00:19:56.510 --> 00:19:59.819
And I think, uh, for the nar- just to finish the
point on the narrative-

00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:02.441
Yeah … or storytelling or documentary.

00:20:02.473 --> 00:20:04.305
I mean, yeah, we have these things.

00:20:04.305 --> 00:20:05.451
They're called documentaries.

00:20:05.452 --> 00:20:05.646
Yeah.

00:20:05.646 --> 00:20:06.441
And they're amazing.

00:20:06.531 --> 00:20:06.686
Yeah.

00:20:06.686 --> 00:20:09.082
I mean, you know, uh- And it's on YouTube today

00:20:09.082 --> 00:20:09.584
Ken Burns just … Yeah.

00:20:09.587 --> 00:20:09.723
Yeah.

00:20:09.724 --> 00:20:13.222
I mean, like Ken Burns documentaries on the
Revolutionary War and,

00:20:13.488 --> 00:20:16.432
and all these things are- Yeah … they do great
numbers.

00:20:16.464 --> 00:20:18.844
Now, they cost- Yeah … a lot to make but I-
Well, they take

00:20:18.860 --> 00:20:20.180
a long time to make too.

00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:20.335
Yeah.

00:20:20.335 --> 00:20:23.457
And they, they're usually made by teams- Mm-hmm
… right?

00:20:23.457 --> 00:20:27.026
Which is exactly what the true crime folks and
the- Exactly

00:20:27.026 --> 00:20:30.802
storytelling audio podcasters had to do too
because- Yep.

00:20:31.307 --> 00:20:33.120
But I do wonder if AI's gonna

00:20:34.255 --> 00:20:35.720
Oh, I think it's already starting to

00:20:35.722 --> 00:20:36.422
help, right?

00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:36.685
And

00:20:36.685 --> 00:20:36.695
so

00:20:36.997 --> 00:20:39.222
we're, so we're gonna see smaller and smaller
teams-

00:20:39.404 --> 00:20:39.678
Yeah

00:20:39.682 --> 00:20:41.820
… being able to produce higher quality-

00:20:41.821 --> 00:20:42.264
Hopefully

00:20:42.547 --> 00:20:43.001
… content.

00:20:43.753 --> 00:20:43.763
Right?

00:20:43.883 --> 00:20:44.168
Yeah.

00:20:44.658 --> 00:20:50.049
Um- I mean, right now I think we're in the AIs
is just taking shortcuts, uh, mode.

00:20:50.313 --> 00:20:50.449
Yeah.

00:20:50.449 --> 00:20:54.240
But I think we're starting to get to a place
where AI can start making

00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:55.086
things much

00:20:55.221 --> 00:20:57.464
better and, like, we're on the cusp of that.

00:20:57.464 --> 00:21:02.866
And so, yeah, I mean, I'm very bullish on both
audio podcasting and video

00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:03.784
podcasting

00:21:03.968 --> 00:21:07.741
Uh, video, not just the chat shows that- Mm-hmm
… uh, you're

00:21:07.741 --> 00:21:11.580
talking about that we're sitting on now, uh, but
also other types

00:21:11.580 --> 00:21:12.313
of shows

00:21:12.439 --> 00:21:14.707
Uh, and people who've experimented-

00:21:14.988 --> 00:21:15.193
Yeah

00:21:15.449 --> 00:21:18.381
… I think they haven't got the math totally
right, but it's not a

00:21:18.384 --> 00:21:19.991
complete, uh- Mm-hmm … waste

00:21:21.407 --> 00:21:26.956
Uh, but, uh, they're just early on, and I think
that stuff is gonna just be more…

00:21:26.971 --> 00:21:32.763
And then look, uh, we've got another existential
change happening probably

00:21:32.764 --> 00:21:38.653
in the next decade, where driverless cars are
gonna be way more mainstream.

00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:39.405
No, I'm serious.

00:21:39.665 --> 00:21:39.949
Like-

00:21:39.950 --> 00:21:42.248
I, I've got a Tesla that's got full
self-driving.

00:21:42.248 --> 00:21:42.464
Right.

00:21:42.464 --> 00:21:43.633
I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:21:43.641 --> 00:21:46.381
And so- I mean, eventually we'll be watching
YouTube videos on our cars.

00:21:46.410 --> 00:21:47.058
Exactly.

00:21:47.090 --> 00:21:50.041
So you, we're go- so you have to start thinking
about these

00:21:50.152 --> 00:21:52.103
big shifts, and COVID was one.

00:21:52.153 --> 00:21:52.353
Yeah.

00:21:52.377 --> 00:21:54.600
And it impacted podcasting dramatically.

00:21:54.608 --> 00:21:54.940
Oh, yeah.

00:21:55.368 --> 00:21:58.598
And I would say pushed it towards video
podcasting.

00:21:58.904 --> 00:21:58.914
Mm-hmm.

00:21:58.914 --> 00:22:00.731
What used to be not allowed- It's true.

00:22:00.731 --> 00:22:02.014
Everybody- … two people on a Zoom.

00:22:02.014 --> 00:22:02.284
Right.

00:22:02.301 --> 00:22:02.836
Exactly.

00:22:02.843 --> 00:22:04.425
Crappy video quality.

00:22:04.846 --> 00:22:06.414
Uh, no offense to Zoom.

00:22:06.723 --> 00:22:08.728
Uh, uh, but very-

00:22:08.734 --> 00:22:09.942
Well, it was more about the webcams, right?

00:22:09.942 --> 00:22:10.419
Yeah.

00:22:10.426 --> 00:22:10.970
Yeah, exactly.

00:22:11.232 --> 00:22:12.483
The webcams weren't very good back then.

00:22:12.868 --> 00:22:17.443
But, like, stuff that was unacceptable- Right …
to put on YouTube for a

00:22:17.444 --> 00:22:24.953
serious production was now, uh, aired on nightly
news, uh, by the biggest

00:22:24.966 --> 00:22:27.149
media houses, uh, out there, right?

00:22:27.166 --> 00:22:30.362
And so the quality got better and better- Mm-hmm
… but still not at

00:22:30.363 --> 00:22:34.879
the same level of, of, of stuff like this in
studio, but was acceptable

00:22:34.879 --> 00:22:35.829
all of a sudden to put- Right

00:22:35.829 --> 00:22:36.420
content out.

00:22:36.823 --> 00:22:38.533
And so COVID made a massive change.

00:22:38.556 --> 00:22:40.587
I think driverless cars will make another big

00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:41.313
change

00:22:41.516 --> 00:22:45.947
And I think the smart money is already invested
in video.

00:22:46.261 --> 00:22:52.488
Apple was probably the last company in it, so
Amazon, Spotify, obviously YouTube.

00:22:52.904 --> 00:22:57.385
And I would say even the radio companies are
investing more and more in, in video.

00:22:57.452 --> 00:22:57.673
Yeah.

00:22:57.732 --> 00:23:02.732
You see that with iHeart and Audacy in the US,
but also internationally.

00:23:02.732 --> 00:23:03.103
Yeah.

00:23:03.103 --> 00:23:08.276
And so I think everyone's preparing for the
future of giving people either

00:23:08.276 --> 00:23:10.335
option, and I think that's a wise call.

00:23:10.829 --> 00:23:13.674
Yeah, Apple really kind of missed an
opportunity, I think.

00:23:13.687 --> 00:23:14.666
Which, which one?

00:23:14.937 --> 00:23:15.260
Well-

00:23:15.868 --> 00:23:16.523
No, I mean, they made it- I

00:23:16.523 --> 00:23:17.847
mean, on the topic of- I actually am

00:23:17.885 --> 00:23:19.577
bullish on Apple's opportunities

00:23:19.603 --> 00:23:19.812
still

00:23:19.812 --> 00:23:20.666
of video.

00:23:20.668 --> 00:23:22.537
I'm talking about the topic of video.

00:23:22.571 --> 00:23:22.925
Yeah.

00:23:23.012 --> 00:23:26.551
Apple has had video support in it since they
started.

00:23:26.569 --> 00:23:26.894
Yes.

00:23:26.898 --> 00:23:27.316
Yes.

00:23:27.859 --> 00:23:31.765
Uh, this show has been in Apple Podcasts- As a
separate feed, right?

00:23:31.765 --> 00:23:31.997
… as a video podcast.

00:23:31.997 --> 00:23:32.834
As a separate feed.

00:23:32.834 --> 00:23:33.265
As a separate feed-

00:23:33.301 --> 00:23:33.608
Right

00:23:33.625 --> 00:23:34.708
… for 14 years.

00:23:34.717 --> 00:23:35.120
Yes.

00:23:35.448 --> 00:23:38.239
So this whole concept that Apple is-

00:23:38.239 --> 00:23:39.364
you know

00:23:39.513 --> 00:23:45.095
joining the video party, it's more about their
recognition that they have

00:23:45.095 --> 00:23:47.381
a role to play in that market- Mm-hmm

00:23:47.381 --> 00:23:47.757
right?

00:23:47.832 --> 00:23:48.153
Mm-hmm.

00:23:48.211 --> 00:23:49.596
' Cause they've always supported it.

00:23:49.981 --> 00:23:50.139
Mm.

00:23:50.143 --> 00:23:52.249
It's just that it wasn't supported in a

00:23:52.249 --> 00:23:53.717
in an

00:23:53.756 --> 00:23:57.271
advanced way that supported the conventional
distribution

00:23:57.275 --> 00:23:58.542
model of streaming.

00:23:59.005 --> 00:23:59.285
Yeah.

00:23:59.334 --> 00:24:03.512
And, you know, like this show was an MP4
download for many years-

00:24:03.557 --> 00:24:03.940
Mm-hmm

00:24:04.059 --> 00:24:04.974
… which played- Do you still do it?

00:24:04.988 --> 00:24:05.969
Do you still do it that way?

00:24:05.970 --> 00:24:07.121
Yeah, I still do it that way.

00:24:07.121 --> 00:24:07.151
You do still

00:24:07.151 --> 00:24:07.514
do it that

00:24:07.514 --> 00:24:07.570
way.

00:24:07.588 --> 00:24:12.146
Um, because there is this other concept of an
al- alternate enclosure-

00:24:12.197 --> 00:24:12.352
Mm-hmm

00:24:12.368 --> 00:24:12.647
… right?

00:24:12.650 --> 00:24:17.590
That can be added so the, the audio RSS feed
that I have right now also-

00:24:17.590 --> 00:24:18.957
Mm … has a link to the video file.

00:24:19.041 --> 00:24:19.480
Mm.

00:24:19.623 --> 00:24:23.337
And then the video RSS feed has a link to the
audio file.

00:24:23.337 --> 00:24:23.347
Mm.

00:24:23.408 --> 00:24:24.421
It's separate.

00:24:24.682 --> 00:24:25.027
Yeah.

00:24:25.370 --> 00:24:28.962
But what Apple did with their, their
announcement was they took their own

00:24:28.965 --> 00:24:34.224
technology, 'cause HLS was invented by Apple,
and they integrated into their

00:24:34.224 --> 00:24:39.236
platform, and are trying to merge the video and
the audio together because

00:24:39.261 --> 00:24:45.545
they're seeing, I, I guess in modern use that
the consumer wants to start a

00:24:45.545 --> 00:24:49.525
video and slide it in their pocket and just
listen to the audio, I guess, is

00:24:49.526 --> 00:24:54.724
what- Well, I- Or they want to start watching a
video and then transition

00:24:54.726 --> 00:24:56.114
into being able to listen to the- Yeah

00:24:56.114 --> 00:24:58.509
audio and not skip a beat there.

00:24:58.565 --> 00:24:58.851
Yeah.

00:24:58.856 --> 00:25:03.103
I will go out on a limb and say no one's
watching us anymore on this show.

00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:05.981
They're now… If they are here, they're still…
But

00:25:05.981 --> 00:25:07.229
they might be listening, right?

00:25:07.229 --> 00:25:07.355
Yeah.

00:25:07.356 --> 00:25:07.747
It's not-

00:25:07.829 --> 00:25:08.308
And that's-

00:25:08.317 --> 00:25:09.502
It's not an exciting video.

00:25:09.507 --> 00:25:10.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:10.138 --> 00:25:10.755
I know.

00:25:10.755 --> 00:25:10.785
By any means.

00:25:10.785 --> 00:25:11.760
I mean, I wanna add stuff

00:25:11.762 --> 00:25:12.464
to it to make it-

00:25:13.175 --> 00:25:13.423
No, but-

00:25:13.423 --> 00:25:13.848
splashy.

00:25:13.949 --> 00:25:14.980
Yeah, but exactly.

00:25:15.030 --> 00:25:18.320
But, but so m- and I, I do that all the time
now.

00:25:18.321 --> 00:25:18.335
Yeah.

00:25:18.335 --> 00:25:21.442
I basically get familiar with the guest quickly.

00:25:21.452 --> 00:25:22.829
Well, there's more places to consume audio.

00:25:22.856 --> 00:25:23.469
Exactly.

00:25:23.483 --> 00:25:24.906
And then go offline.

00:25:25.482 --> 00:25:25.702
Yeah, yeah.

00:25:25.752 --> 00:25:29.958
Well, I shouldn't say offline, but go to audio
consumption on a ongoing

00:25:29.958 --> 00:25:34.707
basis, and sometimes that's just, uh, YouTube,
uh, in a secondary tab.

00:25:35.135 --> 00:25:38.780
So- Mm-hmm … you know, like, but y- you can keep
the listening

00:25:38.782 --> 00:25:41.027
going, and that's the advantage.

00:25:41.053 --> 00:25:43.532
And I think all the platforms know that right
now.

00:25:43.548 --> 00:25:49.261
Uh, you know, like, whether it be at the gym or
driving or even at work or

00:25:49.262 --> 00:25:54.152
while you're cooking, all those places where as,
uh, you know, I think James

00:25:54.334 --> 00:25:56.225
said, you know, your eyes are optional.

00:25:56.637 --> 00:26:02.663
Uh, where, where the eyes add value is in
selection and decision-making,

00:26:03.580 --> 00:26:09.450
uh, and, and extra kind of, uh, confirmation if
you wanna be listening

00:26:10.238 --> 00:26:10.850
to this.

00:26:11.328 --> 00:26:13.533
Uh, but then once you've made that decision,

00:26:13.533 --> 00:26:14.159
you can

00:26:14.165 --> 00:26:16.383
go back to audio or move into audio

00:26:16.383 --> 00:26:17.283
consumption

00:26:17.353 --> 00:26:21.733
and I think that's, that's the future of where
podcasting

00:26:22.955 --> 00:26:28.415
Uh- Mm … if someone's got a, a guest on that I
haven't heard of or

00:26:28.417 --> 00:26:33.258
s- or I… if I haven't heard of, I like to have
an idea of who this

00:26:33.266 --> 00:26:35.090
person is so I could visualize it.

00:26:35.124 --> 00:26:35.566
Mm-hmm.

00:26:35.566 --> 00:26:39.119
And, and, um, cover art doesn't do it
completely.

00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:40.326
No.

00:26:41.158 --> 00:26:43.489
You know, that could be Photoshopped and so on.

00:26:43.671 --> 00:26:43.790
Yeah.

00:26:43.790 --> 00:26:46.598
Not to say video can't get polished, but, but
still there's

00:26:46.598 --> 00:26:48.208
just something about being able to

00:26:48.413 --> 00:26:50.592
consume that for a few more seconds

00:26:50.754 --> 00:26:55.584
that gets you into a, uh, either the listening
mode or not, at

00:26:55.588 --> 00:26:56.911
which place you could flip off.

00:26:57.017 --> 00:26:59.872
But yeah anyways, we're meandering.

00:26:59.872 --> 00:27:06.209
But, um, but I think YouTube… Look, uh, I think,
I think YouTube's only

00:27:06.209 --> 00:27:13.843
solidifying its lead, But I think these other
guys are going to invest and try

00:27:13.844 --> 00:27:16.041
to beat it because I think they have to.

00:27:16.823 --> 00:27:20.418
Well, I think you're talking about the social
media platforms.

00:27:20.459 --> 00:27:23.809
They're, you know, Instagram is a good example-
Mm

00:27:23.809 --> 00:27:28.579
of, of what you're talking about to some degree,
that there are other players

00:27:28.581 --> 00:27:30.311
out there that have significant audience

00:27:30.311 --> 00:27:30.860
that

00:27:30.860 --> 00:27:33.978
can jump into this potentially and make an
impact.

00:27:33.990 --> 00:27:37.128
Their, their announcement to support horizontal
video in

00:27:37.129 --> 00:27:41.989
addition to their vertical video, they have
billions of users too.

00:27:41.997 --> 00:27:42.769
So- Yeah

00:27:42.769 --> 00:27:45.732
you know, can they compete with YouTube?

00:27:45.734 --> 00:27:47.274
And that, that's part of your,

00:27:48.714 --> 00:27:53.261
your thoughts on, on YouTube too is, is, uh, is
there going to be an alternative?

00:27:53.271 --> 00:27:57.400
I, I'm skeptical that Apple's gonna be able to
compete with YouTube on the video

00:27:57.521 --> 00:27:58.308
side

00:27:58.434 --> 00:28:01.508
So it, it may be able to hold onto that audio
side.

00:28:01.705 --> 00:28:02.115
Mm-hmm.

00:28:02.166 --> 00:28:06.414
But who's … Who, who do you think is the most
likely competitor to YouTube?

00:28:06.415 --> 00:28:07.960
Is it TikTok or Instagram, do

00:28:08.861 --> 00:28:09.150
Yeah.

00:28:09.150 --> 00:28:10.262
Well, it's a good point.

00:28:10.282 --> 00:28:14.700
So actually, if you look at, uh, if, if you look
at one of the graphs in my blog

00:28:14.702 --> 00:28:18.792
post, and hopefully you can pull it up here uh,
Threads comes up pretty high

00:28:18.851 --> 00:28:19.546
in terms of

00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:21.020
podcast discovery.

00:28:21.057 --> 00:28:25.033
And so they've kind of intertwined IG and
Threads.

00:28:25.508 --> 00:28:25.518
Mm-hmm.

00:28:25.518 --> 00:28:28.488
Um, and then this push to horizontal video-

00:28:29.683 --> 00:28:29.902
It's

00:28:29.902 --> 00:28:29.932
the Facebook platform.

00:28:29.932 --> 00:28:30.761
It's- Yeah, exactly … it's,

00:28:30.887 --> 00:28:31.128
it's

00:28:31.128 --> 00:28:31.721
global- Yeah.

00:28:31.721 --> 00:28:33.393
And so Facebook- … and it's got huge reach …
Facebook's three

00:28:33.394 --> 00:28:36.802
bil- So Facebook- Yeah … so all of social's five
billion.

00:28:36.806 --> 00:28:36.816
Yeah.

00:28:36.910 --> 00:28:42.023
Out of that six billion, pretty much every
person on the planet, uh, any adult on the

00:28:42.024 --> 00:28:44.108
planet, and unfortunately some kids too-

00:28:45.194 --> 00:28:47.192
um, are on social media.

00:28:47.674 --> 00:28:52.389
But, um, but pretty much everyone's on it in
some way, shape, or form

00:28:52.439 --> 00:28:54.258
across all these different channels.

00:28:54.577 --> 00:28:58.975
And so, uh, social's the best untapped, uh-

00:28:59.110 --> 00:28:59.328
Yeah

00:28:59.543 --> 00:29:02.948
… medium for any platform.

00:29:02.975 --> 00:29:04.401
And, uh, and I-

00:29:04.405 --> 00:29:07.365
Well, they're gonna build apps for the smart TVs
and-

00:29:07.464 --> 00:29:07.895
Mm-hmm

00:29:07.986 --> 00:29:12.361
… and- Mm-hmm … give that experience a shot on
those platforms.

00:29:12.361 --> 00:29:13.666
You know, um

00:29:13.805 --> 00:29:18.121
Apple has had the Apple TV platform for years,
and they've had a podcast

00:29:20.009 --> 00:29:23.967
But o- one of the things that I see Apple making
the mistake is, is that they

00:29:23.969 --> 00:29:27.091
don't put, uh, platform apps on other,

00:29:27.091 --> 00:29:28.035
um

00:29:28.247 --> 00:29:29.970
other competing platforms, right?

00:29:30.025 --> 00:29:30.159
Yeah.

00:29:30.159 --> 00:29:32.742
They don't build an app for Roku,

00:29:33.450 --> 00:29:34.001
build a

00:29:34.001 --> 00:29:35.406
app for

00:29:35.415 --> 00:29:36.276
the Fire Stick.

00:29:36.381 --> 00:29:36.745
Mm-hmm.

00:29:37.718 --> 00:29:41.688
you know, which a lot of people are starting to
use those devices now.

00:29:41.688 --> 00:29:41.742
Are

00:29:41.742 --> 00:29:42.332
there, yeah.

00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:42.659
Right?

00:29:42.691 --> 00:29:46.399
I mean, I think that's always been something on
the Apple side.

00:29:46.404 --> 00:29:53.741
You know, r- uh- I think Apple Podcasts for web
took a while to get to a

00:29:53.742 --> 00:29:55.506
good place, but they've upgraded it.

00:29:55.510 --> 00:29:59.485
So I think- Yeah … I think they're committed to
try where our audience is.

00:29:59.534 --> 00:30:02.639
Again, I think they get to a place where, where
does the

00:30:02.639 --> 00:30:04.813
investment bear the most fruit?

00:30:05.173 --> 00:30:07.787
Is it within platform or is it out of platform?

00:30:07.789 --> 00:30:10.485
They have obviously some platform advantages
that they

00:30:10.485 --> 00:30:12.006
could take a- take advantage of.

00:30:12.421 --> 00:30:17.680
But I think, um, I actually, I'm actually pretty
bullish on, on Apple- Yeah … out

00:30:17.681 --> 00:30:22.827
of, out of the lot because, uh, because we've,
uh, well, we, we kind of…

00:30:22.847 --> 00:30:26.462
And this isn't private information, but we've
been working with them on, on social

00:30:26.465 --> 00:30:29.216
templates, which we released, uh, I think

00:30:29.216 --> 00:30:29.866
it was over

00:30:29.866 --> 00:30:30.523
the summer.

00:30:30.903 --> 00:30:37.160
Uh, and so they're really committed- Mm-hmm …
uh, to try to help creators

00:30:37.454 --> 00:30:39.583
push people to Apple Podcasts.

00:30:39.626 --> 00:30:44.208
Now, there's a lot of hoops to make that happen-
Right … both

00:30:44.226 --> 00:30:48.201
on the infrastructure side, the awareness side
for creators, and

00:30:48.202 --> 00:30:50.282
then on the ROI side for creators.

00:30:51.187 --> 00:30:56.372
But I think they're trying to work those things
out, and I think, I think

00:30:57.067 --> 00:31:01.964
in order to compete with YouTube and maybe
Spotify as well, uh, they're

00:31:01.965 --> 00:31:03.739
gonna have to get those pieces right.

00:31:03.763 --> 00:31:07.534
But I, I, from what I see, they're actually
committed to it, and

00:31:07.535 --> 00:31:08.857
I think making some strides.

00:31:08.889 --> 00:31:09.470
Well, that's good to hear.

00:31:09.520 --> 00:31:09.738
Yeah.

00:31:09.738 --> 00:31:09.889
That's

00:31:09.891 --> 00:31:10.355
good to hear.

00:31:10.384 --> 00:31:10.756
Yeah.

00:31:11.178 --> 00:31:11.592
I know.

00:31:11.592 --> 00:31:15.883
I can't c- I can't comment on the off-platform
software support or,

00:31:15.895 --> 00:31:17.463
like, you know, experience support.

00:31:17.474 --> 00:31:19.123
I think you're right in pointing it out.

00:31:19.507 --> 00:31:25.514
But I think back to, like- I think your point is
generally that, like, look, if

00:31:25.515 --> 00:31:28.489
you wanna beat YouTube, you're gonna have to,
you're gonna have to- We're gonna just

00:31:28.510 --> 00:31:28.945
compete with

00:31:28.946 --> 00:31:28.967
them.

00:31:28.975 --> 00:31:29.379
Yeah.

00:31:29.379 --> 00:31:31.301
You're gonna have to do a lot of things.

00:31:31.347 --> 00:31:31.459
Right.

00:31:31.459 --> 00:31:38.187
Um, and I think my thing, my, my view, number
one, social.

00:31:38.350 --> 00:31:39.635
You gotta win on social.

00:31:39.649 --> 00:31:42.197
It's the biggest pond on the Internet.

00:31:42.334 --> 00:31:42.707
Mm-hmm.

00:31:42.760 --> 00:31:43.979
Second is search.

00:31:44.450 --> 00:31:47.676
Now, that was closed off, but via AI-

00:31:48.064 --> 00:31:48.443
Yeah

00:31:48.443 --> 00:31:52.834
… uh, and LLMs, you can now… What?

00:31:52.845 --> 00:31:54.940
You're, you're gonna tell me no?

00:31:55.478 --> 00:31:55.571
Or-

00:31:55.573 --> 00:31:56.085
No, no, no.

00:31:56.085 --> 00:32:00.838
I th- I'm, I'm seeing a lot of stuff with, uh,
AI right now that

00:32:00.841 --> 00:32:04.336
could kind of break the stranglehold of all-
Yeah … these platforms.

00:32:04.417 --> 00:32:05.157
Ex- exactly.

00:32:05.158 --> 00:32:05.460
I mean,

00:32:05.462 --> 00:32:07.407
why do you think Google- People will be able to
spin up their

00:32:07.407 --> 00:32:08.773
own consumption platform.

00:32:08.784 --> 00:32:11.282
Oh, oh, uh, that via a tool.

00:32:11.632 --> 00:32:15.839
Yeah, I'm just saying about how to get
information people's default

00:32:15.851 --> 00:32:18.070
way is shifted from Google Search-

00:32:18.189 --> 00:32:18.381
Oh,

00:32:18.382 --> 00:32:18.489
yeah, yeah

00:32:18.489 --> 00:32:21.675
uh, and to your point- Definitely … YouTube's
the second leading search

00:32:21.676 --> 00:32:25.795
engine on the, on the Internet because of all
the content they have.

00:32:26.265 --> 00:32:32.126
So I think that door has always been closed, uh,
for any other company-

00:32:32.126 --> 00:32:35.606
Yeah … but I think it's, it, there's another
door that's opening that's getting

00:32:35.607 --> 00:32:38.146
bigger and bigger, which is AI LLM search.

00:32:38.596 --> 00:32:41.143
And, um, and third, I think toolkit.

00:32:41.216 --> 00:32:45.545
So th- those were kind of my three, uh,
suggestions in the blog post.

00:32:45.546 --> 00:32:51.622
Win on social, try to get into LLMs- Mm-hmm …
uh, figure out, that's a

00:32:51.622 --> 00:32:53.972
partnership deal that needs to happen.

00:32:54.377 --> 00:32:58.858
Uh, I'm sure Apple can pull that off on device
with whoever they partner with.

00:32:58.860 --> 00:32:59.103
Yeah.

00:32:59.481 --> 00:33:05.528
Uh, and then third, uh, third is the toolkit,
and I think if you, if you, we

00:33:05.528 --> 00:33:07.641
haven't even talked about YouTube Studio-

00:33:07.916 --> 00:33:08.128
Right

00:33:08.131 --> 00:33:11.970
uh, but it is, I think, way ahead-

00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:12.649
Oh, yeah.

00:33:12.801 --> 00:33:13.211
It's

00:33:13.225 --> 00:33:13.530
the-

00:33:13.530 --> 00:33:15.756
… of all the other pla- all the other kind of-
It's, it's

00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:19.242
the- … CMS platforms … it's the platform that,
that YouTube Studio

00:33:19.247 --> 00:33:21.763
that's really created a lot of envy-

00:33:21.983 --> 00:33:22.124
Mm-hmm

00:33:22.124 --> 00:33:26.149
… in the podcasting space- Mm-hmm … 'cause a lot
of those brand advertisers would

00:33:26.473 --> 00:33:29.153
love to get that level of metrics- Yeah

00:33:29.153 --> 00:33:29.663
out of podcasting.

00:33:29.691 --> 00:33:29.947
Yeah.

00:33:30.204 --> 00:33:31.316
Which is possible.

00:33:31.613 --> 00:33:32.636
Which is possible.

00:33:32.641 --> 00:33:32.859
Yeah.

00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:36.202
I think some of it is, is like you, you said,
the shift towards

00:33:36.209 --> 00:33:40.498
streaming and the legacy, the legacy way of
looking at podcasting as

00:33:40.513 --> 00:33:42.628
offline or asynchronous, et cetera.

00:33:42.977 --> 00:33:46.715
But I think, I think investment in those three
channels-

00:33:46.923 --> 00:33:47.099
Mm-hmm

00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:48.400
… gives people a shot.

00:33:48.693 --> 00:33:55.872
I, I think social's Underutilized by any big

00:33:55.926 --> 00:33:57.509
platform right now

00:33:57.568 --> 00:34:01.786
Well, it's complex for a content creator to
really do what they

00:34:01.786 --> 00:34:04.301
need to do on all these platforms.

00:34:04.301 --> 00:34:04.315
Right.

00:34:04.368 --> 00:34:05.974
And I think that's the opportunity.

00:34:06.011 --> 00:34:09.172
Whichever platform solves that, I think it's
Spotify-

00:34:09.177 --> 00:34:10.258
Is AI going to solve that?

00:34:10.281 --> 00:34:12.496
Well, I think AI is a piece of it, but I think
if- Yeah

00:34:12.496 --> 00:34:17.171
you think about the platform, like what, what a
creator wants to do is understand

00:34:17.171 --> 00:34:21.988
kind of the full cycle and attribution and like,
"Hey, I put out these posts."

00:34:22.193 --> 00:34:23.783
They're doing all this work themselves.

00:34:24.049 --> 00:34:27.609
Whichever platform helps the creator figure out
their,

00:34:27.964 --> 00:34:29.738
their entire kind of flow

00:34:30.579 --> 00:34:35.412
from, creation to consumption better and easier,
that's where creators will

00:34:35.413 --> 00:34:37.391
move, and I think YouTube has done that.

00:34:37.738 --> 00:34:39.340
Uh- Yeah … and that's why we have so

00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:39.936
much in

00:34:39.936 --> 00:34:42.715
podcasting, and we don't have that right now.

00:34:43.224 --> 00:34:48.858
I would say the, the other thing on Apple, my
two cents are I think in, in

00:34:48.859 --> 00:34:55.806
a weird way Their privacy initiative, uh, which
I think is good and valid-

00:34:56.044 --> 00:34:56.250
Yeah

00:34:56.250 --> 00:34:58.647
… works against them in podcasting, though.

00:34:58.648 --> 00:34:58.763
It

00:34:58.765 --> 00:34:59.078
does.

00:34:59.113 --> 00:35:03.770
Because podcasting's main monetization is
obviously advertising.

00:35:03.804 --> 00:35:04.096
Yep.

00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:11.759
And so they-- I think they're kind of caught in
two worlds there, where to win

00:35:11.759 --> 00:35:17.819
on podcasting, how do you, how do you solve for
privacy, where most advertising,

00:35:17.819 --> 00:35:22.364
to your point, most of these brands are getting
data that Apple generally

00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:24.228
Yeah.

00:35:25.121 --> 00:35:30.090
And, and I, I respect Apple for respecting
people's privacy.

00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:31.516
Um

00:35:31.688 --> 00:35:34.470
you know, you look at the new iPhone

00:35:34.470 --> 00:35:35.658
that they've

00:35:35.658 --> 00:35:38.931
they put out and the new update that they just
pushed, uh, all

00:35:38.932 --> 00:35:42.810
the iPhones to with the Apple Intelligence
platform- Mm-hmm … built

00:35:44.978 --> 00:35:46.339
I think Apple is investing

00:35:46.339 --> 00:35:48.059
in AI technology to build into

00:35:48.074 --> 00:35:52.623
their platform, but it's going to be primarily
isolated to their devices.

00:35:52.683 --> 00:35:52.875
Mm-hmm.

00:35:52.875 --> 00:35:53.602
On, on, on device.

00:35:53.602 --> 00:35:55.266
I, I think it's not gonna be like a normal

00:35:56.656 --> 00:35:57.160
Yeah.

00:35:57.296 --> 00:35:57.362
Yeah.

00:35:57.370 --> 00:35:57.623
They'll

00:35:57.645 --> 00:35:59.029
offload whatever they need

00:35:59.029 --> 00:36:01.809
to or- And I think that the Microsoft platform,
Windows and stuff,

00:36:03.229 --> 00:36:05.101
are gonna head that way too.

00:36:05.101 --> 00:36:05.125
Mm-hmm.

00:36:05.130 --> 00:36:07.939
I think ultimately all the operating systems

00:36:07.939 --> 00:36:09.040
are going to be really

00:36:09.112 --> 00:36:10.369
AI operating systems.

00:36:11.120 --> 00:36:13.103
So you're, you're not so keen on Apple.

00:36:13.108 --> 00:36:15.752
I'm actually more bullish on Apple, but where do
you think--

00:36:16.181 --> 00:36:20.555
where do you-- so where-- who can beat YouTube,
in your opinion?

00:36:20.564 --> 00:36:21.022
Anyone?

00:36:21.874 --> 00:36:24.630
Or w- 10 years from now… Okay, let me ask it a
different way.

00:36:24.897 --> 00:36:29.256
So in 10 years, YouTube was a bad word, uh, well
behind anyone

00:36:29.256 --> 00:36:30.511
else, almost didn't exist.

00:36:30.511 --> 00:36:33.469
I know you said you worked with a small team
there, but d- Yeah … w- wasn't

00:36:33.471 --> 00:36:38.360
on the radar of anyone in podcasting- Mm-hmm …
uh, in, in 2016, 10 years ago.

00:36:38.702 --> 00:36:43.066
2036, do you think YouTube has just run away
with it?

00:36:43.334 --> 00:36:45.332
Or who's, who-

00:36:45.373 --> 00:36:46.639
I think that, uh- Or

00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:47.318
it's a new entrant?

00:36:47.331 --> 00:36:52.031
… what'll wind up happening is, is that I think,
uh, these big platforms will build

00:36:53.078 --> 00:36:53.441
Uh-huh

00:36:53.441 --> 00:36:58.062
into all the AI platforms, or, or, or the ones
that won-

00:36:58.241 --> 00:36:58.621
Uh-huh

00:36:58.801 --> 00:37:00.050
… the AI wars.

00:37:00.189 --> 00:37:00.568
Uh-huh.

00:37:00.568 --> 00:37:04.107
Uh, because I think we are coming into a era
where there's gonna be some of them

00:37:04.932 --> 00:37:05.241
Mm-hmm

00:37:05.253 --> 00:37:06.611
… get acquired by others,

00:37:07.325 --> 00:37:11.295
be a consolidation- It's- … probably down to
maybe three platforms, ultimately.

00:37:11.350 --> 00:37:13.850
And so the advantage there goes to Google,
though, right?

00:37:13.971 --> 00:37:16.945
Between Apple, uh, Spotify, and Google.

00:37:17.260 --> 00:37:20.157
Well, I think you have really th- three players.

00:37:20.158 --> 00:37:23.639
You, you have Google, you have Microsoft, and,

00:37:24.779 --> 00:37:25.306
Mm-hmm

00:37:25.306 --> 00:37:28.229
… are the, the, the kingpins,

00:37:28.229 --> 00:37:29.195
really

00:37:29.389 --> 00:37:30.983
of the future of-

00:37:30.985 --> 00:37:32.811
Because of distribution advantages

00:37:32.812 --> 00:37:34.978
right now … of their current install base-
Mm-hmm … and

00:37:34.979 --> 00:37:36.713
their focus on hardware.

00:37:36.785 --> 00:37:37.147
Mm-hmm.

00:37:37.331 --> 00:37:42.290
And their, their focus on You know, just the
power that they have

00:37:42.303 --> 00:37:44.058
based on the data that they have.

00:37:44.058 --> 00:37:44.955
Um

00:37:45.135 --> 00:37:49.694
and also, you know, AI is gonna, you know… But
you have

00:37:49.695 --> 00:37:54.157
to factor in Anthropic, and you have to factor
in OpenAI.

00:37:54.691 --> 00:37:57.592
How do they munge in here and even-

00:37:57.599 --> 00:37:59.229
And, and to your point, social- … even rock …
don't,

00:37:59.343 --> 00:38:00.888
don't underestimate social.

00:38:01.306 --> 00:38:01.600
Right.

00:38:01.600 --> 00:38:01.898
You know?

00:38:01.918 --> 00:38:04.948
It's basically whoever has the best distribution
advantage.

00:38:05.804 --> 00:38:10.008
S- And this is, this is why I think, like, S- I
think Spotify's big mistake-

00:38:10.412 --> 00:38:11.970
Right … is not winning on social.

00:38:12.186 --> 00:38:16.168
They could've invested… Instead of, obviously
they made a ton of mistakes,

00:38:16.171 --> 00:38:20.778
but, but, you know, like, they have, they have
music, and they have, they

00:38:20.778 --> 00:38:25.167
have a great UX, they have, they have a great
app, et cetera, et cetera.

00:38:25.621 --> 00:38:30.201
But they never won- Right … outside of Spotify,
right?

00:38:30.525 --> 00:38:33.622
Uh, and that's- Yeah … that's where you need it
to win.

00:38:34.256 --> 00:38:34.383
Yeah.

00:38:34.385 --> 00:38:34.740
So.

00:38:35.022 --> 00:38:40.063
One, one, one platform that we haven't talked
about, which is huge, is TikTok.

00:38:40.213 --> 00:38:40.642
Mm-hmm.

00:38:41.024 --> 00:38:43.446
And, and you think about Instagram.

00:38:43.474 --> 00:38:43.694
Yeah.

00:38:43.694 --> 00:38:50.478
And you see those two being very similar to each
other in what they do and

00:38:50.478 --> 00:38:51.078
their

00:38:51.226 --> 00:38:52.342
scale of reach.

00:38:52.483 --> 00:38:52.780
Yeah.

00:38:52.959 --> 00:38:53.189
I, I would say.

00:38:53.189 --> 00:38:53.780
Yeah, I think,

00:38:53.889 --> 00:38:59.272
I think, and I, I, I forget- I should- TikTok's,
TikTok's big.

00:38:59.329 --> 00:39:04.224
I mean, we, we publish… So our, on the Headliner
side, we publish the

00:39:04.225 --> 00:39:07.849
most videos to YouTube, number one- Mm-hmm … um,
by a wide margin.

00:39:07.850 --> 00:39:09.105
Number two is IG.

00:39:09.470 --> 00:39:09.531
Mm-hmm.

00:39:09.537 --> 00:39:12.630
Um, but TikTok's coming up there.

00:39:12.769 --> 00:39:16.430
I mean, it's beating s- most of the other social
platforms now.

00:39:16.648 --> 00:39:16.797
Mm-hmm.

00:39:16.797 --> 00:39:17.747
Not all of them.

00:39:18.058 --> 00:39:21.793
But I think TikTok's becoming bigger and bigger.

00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:25.636
I mean, obviously you don't have to go, you, you
don't have to, you

00:39:25.636 --> 00:39:28.907
don't have to go far to know how much

00:39:28.940 --> 00:39:29.390
impact

00:39:29.481 --> 00:39:30.031
it's been.

00:39:30.046 --> 00:39:34.619
And- Right … and I think, um They've, they,
they've been

00:39:34.621 --> 00:39:36.547
dabbling in podcasting as well.

00:39:36.767 --> 00:39:36.849
Mm-hmm.

00:39:36.849 --> 00:39:36.859
Mm-hmm.

00:39:36.859 --> 00:39:44.259
I think, look, all these platforms need to
figure out which of the mediums they could

00:39:44.259 --> 00:39:47.334
at, at the, A, minimum support- Mm-hmm

00:39:47.334 --> 00:39:49.565
but B, really control and win.

00:39:49.578 --> 00:39:53.317
And I think, look, Link- LinkedIn has done
something with podcasting.

00:39:53.687 --> 00:39:57.001
Uh, we just talked about IG, we talked about
TikTok.

00:39:57.345 --> 00:40:00.842
X has full episode support, which we haven't
talked about.

00:40:01.065 --> 00:40:01.245
Yeah.

00:40:01.464 --> 00:40:05.048
So they're, they're well on, they're well on
their way in podcasting.

00:40:05.370 --> 00:40:06.962
Has, has- This show is on X- Right

00:40:06.963 --> 00:40:07.268
as well

00:40:07.269 --> 00:40:08.447
as LinkedIn and-

00:40:08.551 --> 00:40:09.210
Exactly.

00:40:09.223 --> 00:40:14.365
So all these platforms have distribution
advantages over the

00:40:15.504 --> 00:40:15.529
Mm-hmm.

00:40:15.529 --> 00:40:17.936
It's, they don't have the repeat listening,

00:40:18.711 --> 00:40:20.706
long ki- long-term listening

00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:23.228
do.

00:40:23.677 --> 00:40:24.424
Uh-

00:40:24.589 --> 00:40:29.384
So could the, the announcement that Instagram is
gonna support, uh, horizontal

00:40:29.390 --> 00:40:32.826
video be that kind of like the clue of-

00:40:33.271 --> 00:40:33.632
what-

00:40:33.755 --> 00:40:34.053
I think

00:40:34.082 --> 00:40:36.293
they're just testing … what the direction of all
this stuff is gonna

00:40:36.299 --> 00:40:41.427
go, where the, those platforms build TV apps-
Yeah … and they shift

00:40:41.427 --> 00:40:45.777
and- Well- And maybe YouTube has 10 direct
competitors at some point.

00:40:45.779 --> 00:40:48.215
Well, I think, I think all of media is in

00:40:49.593 --> 00:40:50.430
Right … in some sense.

00:40:50.531 --> 00:40:50.702
Right.

00:40:50.712 --> 00:40:54.418
So any, … I mean, look, uh, the war of attention
is on.

00:40:54.424 --> 00:40:55.737
I'm not the one who came up with it.

00:40:55.743 --> 00:40:59.320
Everyone knows, you know, you've got 24 hours in
the day, 16 hours.

00:40:59.601 --> 00:41:00.312
What do you watch?

00:41:00.402 --> 00:41:01.548
Yeah, what do you- What do you listen to?

00:41:01.579 --> 00:41:02.150
Exactly.

00:41:02.166 --> 00:41:02.314
Right.

00:41:02.316 --> 00:41:05.039
And again, don't underestimate the driverless
cars thing.

00:41:05.082 --> 00:41:05.914
Like, that's a- Oh, yeah

00:41:05.929 --> 00:41:11.071
you know, that's a decent chunk of time, uh,
that's opening up for someone to win.

00:41:11.327 --> 00:41:11.555
Um- Well,

00:41:11.555 --> 00:41:11.987
I,

00:41:11.997 --> 00:41:14.779
I mean, in the Cybercab, you hop in the
Cybercab, there's not

00:41:14.779 --> 00:41:15.946
even a steering wheel and pedals.

00:41:16.099 --> 00:41:16.487
Mm-hmm.

00:41:16.593 --> 00:41:19.758
And the only thing you can look at is out the
window or out the

00:41:19.759 --> 00:41:23.923
windshield, or look at the screen- Yeah … which
is a pretty big-sized

00:41:24.619 --> 00:41:26.228
and you can play games in there.

00:41:26.228 --> 00:41:30.756
And there, there's also been a lot of talk
about, um, the consolidation.

00:41:30.946 --> 00:41:32.423
I know, um

00:41:32.597 --> 00:41:33.776
this gets talked about,

00:41:34.764 --> 00:41:40.242
a, a fair amount on Podnews too, is about how
we're, we're moving towards

00:41:40.244 --> 00:41:42.146
platforms that consolidate all sorts

00:41:44.396 --> 00:41:45.028
content now.

00:41:45.028 --> 00:41:45.248
Mm-hmm.

00:41:45.293 --> 00:41:45.563
Right?

00:41:45.563 --> 00:41:45.575
Mm-hmm.

00:41:45.591 --> 00:41:48.373
Whether it be audiobooks and it's all in one
place.

00:41:48.383 --> 00:41:48.444
Mm-hmm.

00:41:48.444 --> 00:41:54.254
And Apple made, made a choice many years ago to
create separate apps- Break

00:41:54.259 --> 00:41:54.602
it up.

00:41:54.697 --> 00:41:54.891
Uh-huh

00:41:54.899 --> 00:41:56.323
… for all of these- Uh-huh … platforms.

00:41:56.336 --> 00:41:56.617
Mm-hmm.

00:41:56.875 --> 00:42:02.421
And so it does feel like we're moving back
towards … You know, I know

00:42:02.423 --> 00:42:06.247
Sam Sethi keeps talking about this, you know,
moving back towards an era

00:42:06.247 --> 00:42:09.105
where people go one place and they get a bunch
of different- Mm-hmm

00:42:09.105 --> 00:42:09.446
content.

00:42:10.075 --> 00:42:11.764
And that may be a little bit about what's

00:42:11.866 --> 00:42:13.386
going on here. And

00:42:13.563 --> 00:42:19.010
but I do, you know- Platforms that are specific
to a particular type of

00:42:19.012 --> 00:42:22.656
experience also has value too, right?

00:42:22.668 --> 00:42:22.938
Yeah.

00:42:23.262 --> 00:42:23.642
I mean, that

00:42:23.643 --> 00:42:24.288
was kind of my point.

00:42:24.288 --> 00:42:24.682
You know?

00:42:24.682 --> 00:42:28.620
It's easy to just throw a bunch of stuff in
there, and it just crowds the market.

00:42:28.622 --> 00:42:31.117
A lot of criticism has been given to Spotify

00:42:31.306 --> 00:42:32.036
because, you

00:42:32.082 --> 00:42:36.722
know, music and podcasts are, and now video are
all mixed together, and so the

00:42:36.726 --> 00:42:38.427
audience- Sure … gets fragmented, right.

00:42:38.427 --> 00:42:38.677
Yeah.

00:42:39.138 --> 00:42:40.792
I think, look, pros and cons.

00:42:40.851 --> 00:42:42.237
My two cents on this

00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:45.234
is kind of like bundling and unbundling.

00:42:45.243 --> 00:42:47.640
This kind of kind of- Right … g- goes on and
comes…

00:42:47.667 --> 00:42:50.056
There's kind of a swing this way and that way.

00:42:50.424 --> 00:42:54.629
But I think over time these things kind of just
keep happening, right?

00:42:54.630 --> 00:42:59.250
And so, like, the breakup or consolidation views
is just a

00:42:59.251 --> 00:43:01.174
question of where we are in the cycle.

00:43:01.489 --> 00:43:05.648
And then and then on the second point, really
around, The second

00:43:05.648 --> 00:43:08.775
point… Sorry, I was thinking about that
consolidation view.

00:43:09.282 --> 00:43:14.533
There's one more point I wanna add there, is
that I think these platforms

00:43:14.546 --> 00:43:17.325
have the ability to test out these other

00:43:17.325 --> 00:43:18.249
things

00:43:18.383 --> 00:43:21.327
And that's just what we're in, right?

00:43:21.354 --> 00:43:27.476
Pod- Like, video podcasting has taken the medium
to a place where it's now

00:43:27.490 --> 00:43:32.456
applicable- Yeah … to my point earlier about
audio being a second-class citizen.

00:43:32.458 --> 00:43:35.992
Now with video, you're a first-class citizen on
the web, and so

00:43:35.992 --> 00:43:41.912
everyone's, everyone's IG feed almost has some
podcast content in it.

00:43:41.936 --> 00:43:45.988
I mean, obviously the algorithm is shifting more
for me, but like,

00:43:46.350 --> 00:43:51.212
but generally speaking, this, like, look, people
are even faking it.

00:43:51.228 --> 00:43:51.947
You've r- Yeah.

00:43:52.128 --> 00:43:53.258
You've seen those stories.

00:43:53.569 --> 00:43:56.455
Like, this is just part of all consumption

00:43:57.527 --> 00:43:57.779
Yeah.

00:43:57.779 --> 00:44:02.719
And I, I, I do increasingly think about w-
what's, what's the future of RSS too?

00:44:02.797 --> 00:44:03.229
Mm-hmm.

00:44:03.265 --> 00:44:03.491
Mm-hmm.

00:44:03.491 --> 00:44:06.965
I mean, we've… I mean, Apple has embraced

00:44:06.965 --> 00:44:09.219
or, um

00:44:09.219 --> 00:44:11.869
the delivery of video through an API.

00:44:11.966 --> 00:44:12.335
Mm-hmm.

00:44:12.579 --> 00:44:18.323
And so right now, most of the consumption of
podcasting

00:44:18.325 --> 00:44:19.267
now via

00:44:19.267 --> 00:44:21.349
RSS is primarily audio only.

00:44:21.355 --> 00:44:21.685
Mm-hmm.

00:44:22.032 --> 00:44:27.413
So my… I just wonder, are we m- moving into an
era, and this gets

00:44:27.515 --> 00:44:28.282
back to even to

00:44:28.350 --> 00:44:31.471
to your platform- Mm-hmm … you know, He-
Headliner how do you

00:44:31.473 --> 00:44:33.387
see the content distribution

00:44:34.325 --> 00:44:35.008
evolving?

00:44:35.033 --> 00:44:37.737
Are, is it gonna shift more towards APIs,

00:44:37.737 --> 00:44:38.793
Do you think

00:44:39.210 --> 00:44:43.893
I, I don't think you have a gi- So the short
answer is yes.

00:44:43.984 --> 00:44:47.071
I, I don't know if I'm a big fan of that, but I
would say-

00:44:47.084 --> 00:44:47.302
Yeah

00:44:47.481 --> 00:44:49.567
… I would say that's where everything's going.

00:44:49.572 --> 00:44:49.599
Yeah.

00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:55.138
When you don't have one of the giants, and now I
don't even think

00:44:55.140 --> 00:44:57.073
you can in third or fourth place

00:44:57.110 --> 00:44:59.237
even

00:44:59.324 --> 00:45:03.030
But, but no one's out there really advocating
for it.

00:45:03.030 --> 00:45:07.706
They're RSS friendly and they want to support
RSS, but at the same time

00:45:07.706 --> 00:45:12.591
they're doing these other ways, these
alternative ways for monetization

00:45:12.591 --> 00:45:14.287
or control or what have you.

00:45:14.288 --> 00:45:17.364
Whatever the reasons might be I think we're in
this world

00:45:17.365 --> 00:45:19.654
where RSS is slowly dying.

00:45:19.990 --> 00:45:24.309
Uh- Yeah … I don't think it's gonna completely
die, but I think it's, it's

00:45:24.311 --> 00:45:30.025
slowly, uh… it provided a lot of value, but I
think the g- if the giants control

00:45:30.087 --> 00:45:33.148
the ecosystem, and again you don't have a, you
don't have a giant that's

00:45:33.174 --> 00:45:36.629
pushing it another way, I just don't see,

00:45:36.673 --> 00:45:38.104
um

00:45:38.277 --> 00:45:38.723
I just don't

00:45:41.058 --> 00:45:43.594
It does kind of feel like if you think about… to
take us back

00:45:43.600 --> 00:45:45.882
to talking about AI here too,

00:45:47.923 --> 00:45:53.494
i- if these big platforms build MCPs, which
will- Mm-hmm … give access to

00:45:53.506 --> 00:46:00.337
individuals to create experiences based on
content that's in like a Spotify

00:46:01.016 --> 00:46:05.050
or a, YouTube, you know, and it may get to a
point where YouTube, it's in their

00:46:05.054 --> 00:46:07.217
best interest to allow people to create

00:46:07.297 --> 00:46:10.115
their own consumption experiences

00:46:10.115 --> 00:46:11.843
just by prompting, right?

00:46:11.867 --> 00:46:11.980
Mm-hmm.

00:46:11.982 --> 00:46:17.517
Create this type of an experience, give me
access to my, my catalog of content

00:46:18.497 --> 00:46:20.209
that I like to consume. And, um

00:46:20.355 --> 00:46:23.737
you know, it can all be done through voice
prompts or text prompts or

00:46:24.602 --> 00:46:25.875
can create a lot of different things.

00:46:25.876 --> 00:46:28.772
I do wonder how this is gonna play out,

00:46:30.058 --> 00:46:30.867
know, it could be…

00:46:31.629 --> 00:46:34.978
the future could be powered by YouTube or it
could be,

00:46:35.720 --> 00:46:41.777
s- some sort of a, a application integration
type of a thing inside of AI.

00:46:42.626 --> 00:46:43.663
But I don't know.

00:46:43.678 --> 00:46:45.485
H- how do you see this playing out?

00:46:45.524 --> 00:46:49.274
I'm seeing so much interesting things happening
even with my work

00:46:49.276 --> 00:46:51.610
with AI and being able to build,

00:46:51.754 --> 00:46:52.963
anything I want to build, right

00:46:53.142 --> 00:46:54.701
There, there isn't any limitation.

00:46:54.702 --> 00:46:58.948
I'm- Mm … I'm sure you guys are probably using
AI to write code now and-

00:46:58.986 --> 00:46:59.585
Oh, yeah.

00:46:59.717 --> 00:47:01.795
Totally … and, and it's only gonna get better
and faster.

00:47:01.798 --> 00:47:02.680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:02.682 --> 00:47:04.898
I mean, I'm writing my own prototypes.

00:47:04.900 --> 00:47:08.128
I'm not bothering my engineering team anymore-
Yeah.

00:47:08.135 --> 00:47:09.007
That's awesome … uh, which is great.

00:47:09.057 --> 00:47:12.307
Uh, it gets me back into being engineer again
kind of.

00:47:12.407 --> 00:47:14.583
I, I, I feel like Claude's my engineer, I guess.

00:47:14.583 --> 00:47:15.290
Yeah, right.

00:47:15.343 --> 00:47:17.810
But, um, but I think, uh, I don't know.

00:47:17.913 --> 00:47:18.986
I don't know where it goes.

00:47:19.015 --> 00:47:25.927
I think your point on ins- MCPs is, is great for
plumbing, but I, I, um,

00:47:28.130 --> 00:47:30.154
I think everything's dictated by convenience

00:47:30.154 --> 00:47:30.699
to the

00:47:30.699 --> 00:47:33.115
user, to the, on the consumption platforms.

00:47:33.411 --> 00:47:39.144
I w- I was just talking to someone about
Netflix's, s- drop in stock, uh, over the

00:47:39.146 --> 00:47:41.554
past y- you know, six months or so on,

00:47:42.225 --> 00:47:43.961
just done a round of layoffs and so on.

00:47:43.961 --> 00:47:46.329
I know that they've just entered podcasting.

00:47:46.348 --> 00:47:50.208
But my, my two cents on it was, look, all the
other platforms

00:47:50.214 --> 00:47:54.516
have, like, leveled up on the UX.

00:47:54.627 --> 00:48:00.283
Like, uh, you know, when I, when I see Paramount
or HBO- Mm-hmm … or,

00:48:00.283 --> 00:48:03.909
or all these other stream- Hulu, all these other
streaming platforms,

00:48:03.924 --> 00:48:04.580
a

00:48:04.649 --> 00:48:08.770
few years ago, uh, when I went into their apps,
I was like, "Well,

00:48:09.016 --> 00:48:11.253
guys, like, just copy Netflix.

00:48:11.274 --> 00:48:12.419
What the hell is this?

00:48:12.445 --> 00:48:15.516
This is, like, clunky and bad, you know?

00:48:15.517 --> 00:48:16.916
Like, just copy Netflix."

00:48:16.949 --> 00:48:22.194
And- Yeah … and lo and behold, like, now I feel
like everyone's copied Disney.

00:48:22.218 --> 00:48:24.424
Like, everyone's copied Netflix kind of.

00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:24.883
Yeah.

00:48:24.905 --> 00:48:26.094
They have their little angles.

00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:29.095
But, like, in terms of user experience, they're
all amazing.

00:48:29.582 --> 00:48:31.432
Like, they're all very good.

00:48:31.433 --> 00:48:34.257
I'm sure there's some people who are like, "Oh,
no, this is so much better

00:48:34.257 --> 00:48:38.525
and this is so much better," but for the average
consumer, I think now, now it's

00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:40.648
just a fight over the content, right?

00:48:40.648 --> 00:48:40.776
Right.

00:48:40.801 --> 00:48:42.802
And so that's why you have all this licensing
stuff.

00:48:42.818 --> 00:48:47.401
So I think going back to where AI will, will do
it, I think whoever can build

00:48:47.401 --> 00:48:52.090
the best experience, the content, I think, will
become available wherever.

00:48:52.090 --> 00:48:53.917
That's always been the mission of RSS.

00:48:54.109 --> 00:48:54.312
Yeah.

00:48:54.393 --> 00:49:00.929
I think, uh, I think Spotify's strategy around
exclusives pretty much didn't work.

00:49:01.106 --> 00:49:01.198
Yeah.

00:49:01.435 --> 00:49:05.852
Uh, so I don't see… YouTube's never really been
in that game- Mm-hmm

00:49:05.852 --> 00:49:11.477
… except obviously they're trying to do that
with TV for sports and, and so on.

00:49:11.894 --> 00:49:16.320
I just, I think who can provide the best
experience, which, sorry to

00:49:16.678 --> 00:49:18.970
keep bringing you back, but this is why you had
me on the show.

00:49:18.970 --> 00:49:20.438
But I think that's point three.

00:49:20.452 --> 00:49:23.144
YouTube Studio for the creator is very good.

00:49:23.548 --> 00:49:27.785
I think if whoever can figure out the experience
for the podcast consumption

00:49:28.720 --> 00:49:33.069
experience, beyond just longti- long, loyal
listening- Yeah … which is

00:49:33.070 --> 00:49:35.275
where the apps have advantages in audio.

00:49:35.719 --> 00:49:40.939
But I think as they keep on playing there,
whoever can solve that, has a good chance.

00:49:41.059 --> 00:49:45.777
Because I think the thing with YouTube is, is
they have to build for every type

00:49:45.777 --> 00:49:49.983
of video, like ASMR, cat videos, MrBeast.

00:49:50.624 --> 00:49:56.355
You know, like this conversation, you know, I
could have a quick

00:49:56.355 --> 00:49:59.621
rundown of every question I've asked you, you've
asked me.

00:49:59.682 --> 00:50:00.122
Mm-hmm.

00:50:00.318 --> 00:50:04.207
Like, there's just so many ways to slice and
dice our content- Yeah

00:50:04.207 --> 00:50:07.060
when you know this is the type of content.

00:50:07.082 --> 00:50:11.031
Not to say YouTube can't do that, but it's much
harder for them to

00:50:11.033 --> 00:50:14.599
do it than a podcast, uh, app.

00:50:14.771 --> 00:50:15.206
Yeah … you know.

00:50:15.206 --> 00:50:19.076
And so I think whoever can invest in building
that

00:50:19.206 --> 00:50:21.612
has a good chance too

00:50:21.847 --> 00:50:25.746
And I also think that RSS could have a place in
the AI's

00:50:27.561 --> 00:50:27.801
Yeah

00:50:27.801 --> 00:50:31.082
and, and, and it could be that- I- … that, that
source,

00:50:31.085 --> 00:50:33.356
that open source for content.

00:50:33.501 --> 00:50:33.853
Mm-hmm.

00:50:33.853 --> 00:50:33.863
Mm-hmm.

00:50:33.912 --> 00:50:37.726
So we may find, you know, while there's a lot of
content creators

00:50:37.726 --> 00:50:38.862
now that are

00:50:38.970 --> 00:50:41.636
Only publishing to one or two platforms- Mm-hmm

00:50:41.751 --> 00:50:42.576
… [Mic bleed]

00:50:42.756 --> 00:50:44.771
TikTok creators or they're YouTubers

00:50:46.331 --> 00:50:47.037
or whatnot.

00:50:47.138 --> 00:50:47.442
Mm-hmm.

00:50:47.590 --> 00:50:49.095
Or even the Whatnot platform too- Yeah

00:50:49.098 --> 00:50:49.902
is another one.

00:50:50.227 --> 00:50:55.671
Um, which is combining, you know, commerce with
live, live video- Mm-hmm

00:50:55.671 --> 00:50:57.443
… which is an interesting platform too.

00:50:58.148 --> 00:51:00.982
Uh, it's- QVC … growing very rapidly.

00:51:01.092 --> 00:51:03.240
I've heard numbers that the, the Whatnot

00:51:04.587 --> 00:51:09.183
650,000 users a month, uh, right now.

00:51:09.193 --> 00:51:13.328
So they're… It's gonna take them a while to get
up to the scale of a TikTok,

00:51:13.441 --> 00:51:14.489
but, um

00:51:14.651 --> 00:51:18.781
they're, they're like a direct competitor of
TikTok now on the vertical video side.

00:51:18.973 --> 00:51:23.518
But- Yeah … but I do wonder about, uh, where
human judgment comes in.

00:51:23.590 --> 00:51:28.662
I know your platform currently grades clips, you
know, short-form

00:51:28.662 --> 00:51:29.219
clips

00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:32.667
using some AI, and it… And a lot of platforms
are doing this now.

00:51:32.718 --> 00:51:33.080
Uh-huh.

00:51:33.136 --> 00:51:35.138
To, to help creators decide what they're

00:51:35.153 --> 00:51:35.826
going to share

00:51:35.826 --> 00:51:37.040
and what they're not gonna share.

00:51:37.053 --> 00:51:37.343
Yeah.

00:51:37.712 --> 00:51:39.984
And how do you see that evolving?

00:51:39.984 --> 00:51:45.063
Will AI, do you think, Neil, um, get to a point
where it can really judge

00:51:45.080 --> 00:51:51.531
content more accurately based on real data
around what is gonna work and

00:51:54.087 --> 00:51:55.888
Do you think, is it gonna get to that point, you

00:51:55.926 --> 00:51:56.243
think?

00:51:56.243 --> 00:52:00.276
I think, um, I think it already has gotten to
that point.

00:52:00.276 --> 00:52:01.391
Oh, you think it's gotten to that point?

00:52:01.391 --> 00:52:01.833
Yeah.

00:52:01.839 --> 00:52:04.915
I think if you think about all the signals you
have to pull in-

00:52:05.073 --> 00:52:05.311
Yeah

00:52:05.311 --> 00:52:12.405
… now properly between social and what's going
on, it's just really hard.

00:52:12.588 --> 00:52:17.198
Uh, not to say- Yeah … that people can't beat
it, but I think on your average,

00:52:17.554 --> 00:52:23.831
uh, your average creator should, should be
thinking about letting the LLM,

00:52:23.841 --> 00:52:25.483
especially when it comes to language.

00:52:25.487 --> 00:52:25.918
Yeah.

00:52:25.918 --> 00:52:30.180
I think these things are built around language
and understanding that.

00:52:30.180 --> 00:52:33.324
I think they have- Okay … an ability to kind of
synthesize that.

00:52:33.325 --> 00:52:40.031
But, uh, but going back, but I think, uh- A
podcaster or creator needs to figure

00:52:40.032 --> 00:52:41.706
out their voice and their differentiator.

00:52:42.461 --> 00:52:42.473
Mm-hmm.

00:52:42.473 --> 00:52:46.704
And so there's still, there's still a role for
them to, I think, shift

00:52:46.704 --> 00:52:48.774
and gear the AI towards what they

00:52:49.455 --> 00:52:49.660
Right.

00:52:49.670 --> 00:52:54.265
And that's really where I think, uh, you know, I
think autopilot

00:52:54.265 --> 00:52:56.325
mode, we're not there yet.

00:52:56.436 --> 00:52:57.742
But I think in terms of-

00:52:57.834 --> 00:52:58.116
Yeah

00:52:58.116 --> 00:53:03.221
… in terms of taking signal from AI and, and
using your own

00:53:03.223 --> 00:53:04.677
judgment, I think we're definitely

00:53:05.991 --> 00:53:06.345
Yeah.

00:53:07.058 --> 00:53:10.764
I see a lot of content creators on YouTube that
are putting up,

00:53:10.777 --> 00:53:11.767
you know

00:53:11.884 --> 00:53:16.201
shows talking about how to, how to optimize your
content to- Mm-hmm

00:53:16.201 --> 00:53:17.997
be successful and stuff, and

00:53:17.997 --> 00:53:19.208
these, you know, these

00:53:19.343 --> 00:53:21.050
top 10 lists and things like that.

00:53:21.060 --> 00:53:21.207
They

00:53:22.552 --> 00:53:27.140
talk about going to one of the big steps is
doing

00:53:27.540 --> 00:53:28.656
research

00:53:28.837 --> 00:53:30.160
on your topic

00:53:30.160 --> 00:53:31.118
and

00:53:31.269 --> 00:53:37.004
finding examples of other content that has,
that's in the similar

00:53:37.006 --> 00:53:40.340
genre that you're wanting to do- Mm-hmm … that
has reached scale,

00:53:40.340 --> 00:53:41.085
Right

00:53:41.248 --> 00:53:43.883
And then just kind of copying that format-

00:53:43.994 --> 00:53:44.339
Mm-hmm

00:53:44.339 --> 00:53:45.783
… and redoing it.

00:53:45.790 --> 00:53:47.293
Ob- Yeah … obviously not,

00:53:48.157 --> 00:53:52.588
uh, cloning it precisely, but- Yeah … putting
your own spin on it.

00:53:52.834 --> 00:53:56.434
So I'm seeing this kind of movement towards a
lot of copycatting

00:53:56.490 --> 00:53:57.405
going on

00:53:57.576 --> 00:54:00.453
as, and that's kind of over time, I

00:54:01.049 --> 00:54:03.274
gonna remove the human creativity layer.

00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:08.320
But it's emphasizing- I think for the- … the,
uh, the talent requirement.

00:54:08.394 --> 00:54:08.694
Yeah.

00:54:08.694 --> 00:54:08.966
I think

00:54:08.989 --> 00:54:10.114
the- And the production ability.

00:54:10.155 --> 00:54:10.425
Yeah.

00:54:10.426 --> 00:54:13.923
I think the mean has gone up, right, on terms of
because everyone has

00:54:13.923 --> 00:54:15.619
access to these tools that they didn't.

00:54:15.636 --> 00:54:19.003
And so, so the number of hours kind of needed.

00:54:19.024 --> 00:54:23.469
But hopefully, the maximum goes up, but through
creativity still.

00:54:23.483 --> 00:54:27.130
Like, w- I think everyone's warned, like we
can't just get into this homogeneous

00:54:28.493 --> 00:54:28.916
uh, world- Yeah.

00:54:28.916 --> 00:54:29.272
If everybody's

00:54:29.287 --> 00:54:30.144
making the same

00:54:30.158 --> 00:54:30.356
kind

00:54:30.356 --> 00:54:30.450
of

00:54:30.450 --> 00:54:31.080
content- The same crap.

00:54:31.097 --> 00:54:31.451
Right

00:54:31.487 --> 00:54:32.950
… trying to go after the same audience.

00:54:32.978 --> 00:54:33.668
Exactly.

00:54:33.761 --> 00:54:34.779
So this is where- It

00:54:34.779 --> 00:54:35.409
becomes

00:54:35.409 --> 00:54:35.419
commoditized.

00:54:35.439 --> 00:54:35.964
Exactly.

00:54:35.965 --> 00:54:40.109
And then I think that's where you'll get
creativity to break things out of, right?

00:54:40.130 --> 00:54:42.638
And, and you see this on social, you know.

00:54:42.982 --> 00:54:48.689
Uh, look, we were kind of the, you know, we, we
were, and still are

00:54:48.689 --> 00:54:54.025
probably the biggest company in, um, in, in
getting audio out to-

00:54:54.216 --> 00:54:54.554
Mm-hmm

00:54:54.568 --> 00:54:55.815
… to social media.

00:54:55.835 --> 00:54:58.082
But, you know, people got tired of it over time.

00:54:58.087 --> 00:55:01.453
Like, you know, it's like, you know, audiograms
are fine, but

00:55:01.455 --> 00:55:03.299
they're not working anymore.

00:55:03.321 --> 00:55:03.331
Yeah.

00:55:03.335 --> 00:55:07.138
And so, so there, there needs to be kind of this
evolution- Well, there's

00:55:07.138 --> 00:55:08.727
a higher expectation of- Yeah, exactly … what
that experience is, right?

00:55:08.729 --> 00:55:09.335
Exactly.

00:55:09.337 --> 00:55:09.521
Yeah.

00:55:09.521 --> 00:55:12.144
And, and, and you'll see that in video too, and
so on.

00:55:12.472 --> 00:55:17.456
And so, so AI will work towards generally what's
best right now.

00:55:17.684 --> 00:55:17.724
Mm-hmm.

00:55:17.724 --> 00:55:20.377
What humans have to do is kind of figure out the
next thing.

00:55:20.388 --> 00:55:23.122
Not to say AI can't play a role there.

00:55:23.124 --> 00:55:26.322
I mean, I think we're all still grappling and
trying to understand

00:55:26.583 --> 00:55:28.614
what the limits of this stuff will be.

00:55:29.072 --> 00:55:32.112
I think on the creative side currently

00:55:34.231 --> 00:55:40.709
And given podcasting and, and the medium itself
is a creative medium-

00:55:40.939 --> 00:55:42.500
Mm-hmm … we have a distinct advantage

00:55:43.740 --> 00:55:44.207
So- Yeah

00:55:44.207 --> 00:55:46.717
uh, but my point is,

00:55:47.314 --> 00:55:53.520
you know, I think you b- I think in terms of,
like, analyzing and understanding

00:55:53.520 --> 00:55:57.865
language- Mm-hmm … this is, like, what the A-
LLMs at least are built to do.

00:55:57.931 --> 00:55:58.233
Right.

00:55:58.290 --> 00:56:03.078
Uh, and so not using it at this point at least
as a reference

00:56:03.753 --> 00:56:06.426
probably a, a bad idea.

00:56:06.530 --> 00:56:08.699
But obviously I'm very biased.

00:56:09.077 --> 00:56:10.602
I'm, I'm actually very surprised.

00:56:10.604 --> 00:56:14.239
We wrote we wrote all our own code- Mm-hmm …
non-LLM

00:56:15.359 --> 00:56:16.600
To figure out clips.

00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:21.340
Uh, and then we started using LLMs more, and
there was a, a

00:56:21.341 --> 00:56:23.204
very large amount of overlap.

00:56:23.285 --> 00:56:27.973
Uh, and so I'm actually, we're actually at the
point where I'm actually trying

00:56:27.974 --> 00:56:35.624
to do, like, blind tests of human, uh, picked
clips versus LLM-generated clips.

00:56:35.667 --> 00:56:36.068
Oh.

00:56:36.488 --> 00:56:41.331
Because I think, uh, I think there's negative
baggage around

00:56:41.398 --> 00:56:44.010
AI clipping, uh, right now.

00:56:44.301 --> 00:56:44.475
Well,

00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:47.051
humans still select which clip that they wanna
use.

00:56:47.051 --> 00:56:47.420
Yeah,

00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:48.213
that's, that's all

00:56:48.220 --> 00:56:48.394
true.

00:56:48.394 --> 00:56:52.613
Even though your AI will say this one is
probably a higher virality-

00:56:52.613 --> 00:56:53.454
Yeah … or whatever is the-

00:56:53.454 --> 00:56:53.700
Yeah

00:56:54.034 --> 00:56:56.727
… the tagging that people put on various clips.

00:56:56.730 --> 00:56:57.067
Yeah.

00:56:57.067 --> 00:56:57.077
Yeah.

00:56:57.368 --> 00:57:00.741
So we're, we're in the middle of this right now,
figuring all this stuff out.

00:57:00.741 --> 00:57:00.751
Yeah.

00:57:00.768 --> 00:57:05.725
But I was very surprised that all the years of,
like, our algorithm

00:57:05.731 --> 00:57:10.239
development, um, and we're getting a large
overlap with LLMs

00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:11.190
at this point

00:57:11.362 --> 00:57:14.532
But I think, I think, uh, yeah, I've been
impressed.

00:57:14.558 --> 00:57:17.573
The more, uh, the more I un- uh, the, the more I
use AI,

00:57:17.585 --> 00:57:19.102
the more impressed I am by it.

00:57:19.205 --> 00:57:22.018
You know, but again, I don't do super creative
work.

00:57:24.164 --> 00:57:24.593
So

00:57:24.612 --> 00:57:28.002
So what do you think, just based on what you're
seeing in the market,

00:57:28.042 --> 00:57:34.149
um, the human moat is right now around what do
you have to become

00:57:34.763 --> 00:57:35.254
creator-

00:57:35.260 --> 00:57:35.645
Mm-hmm

00:57:35.645 --> 00:57:38.152
… um, now to stand out?

00:57:38.241 --> 00:57:38.422
Mm-hmm.

00:57:38.450 --> 00:57:42.367
I'm increasingly worried that w- we're probably
in the next year,

00:57:42.367 --> 00:57:46.819
we're gonna come into an era where there's gonna
be an accelerated amount

00:57:46.819 --> 00:57:48.005
of, um

00:57:48.005 --> 00:57:49.859
entirely AI generated

00:57:50.921 --> 00:57:51.050
Mm-hmm

00:57:51.050 --> 00:57:51.365
that are going

00:57:51.479 --> 00:57:52.024
to

00:57:52.090 --> 00:57:55.125
start capturing more- Mm-hmm … and more audience
share.

00:57:55.165 --> 00:57:55.534
Yeah.

00:57:55.838 --> 00:57:56.409
And,

00:57:57.318 --> 00:58:01.728
what are those skills that a human creator needs
to emphasize?

00:58:01.729 --> 00:58:05.817
I'm, I'm- Mm-hmm … also seeing other people that
are ins- you know,

00:58:05.819 --> 00:58:10.812
teaching content creation now talk about those,
those human elements

00:58:10.823 --> 00:58:12.588
that could be considered to be moats

00:58:13.665 --> 00:58:14.017
Yeah.

00:58:14.064 --> 00:58:16.550
I mean, I'm no expert here, but I think, look,

00:58:17.564 --> 00:58:21.186
you know, use your humanity to your advantage.

00:58:21.271 --> 00:58:25.957
Uh- Yeah … and I think if people are asking if
you're an

00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:29.438
AI bot, you're, you're, you're, you're in
trouble, you know?

00:58:29.838 --> 00:58:32.845
Uh, and then, uh- Yeah … I think, uh, and, and
look-

00:58:32.845 --> 00:58:33.953
And whether or not it's true or not.

00:58:35.109 --> 00:58:36.314
Yes, I am a robot.

00:58:36.831 --> 00:58:37.999
Uh, sorry.

00:58:38.413 --> 00:58:38.919
I had to.

00:58:39.194 --> 00:58:45.484
But I think, I think the real thing is, is-
Consum- uh, g- on the consumption

00:58:45.487 --> 00:58:50.757
side, I think people are already kind of
negative on it, and so, you know, this

00:58:50.757 --> 00:58:54.604
is your entry point because I think, I think
there will be a bifurcation here,

00:58:54.604 --> 00:58:58.188
and there'll be- Yeah … people totally fine with
it or don't really care.

00:58:58.628 --> 00:59:03.981
But I think the kind of other cohort's still
gonna be the larger one that wants

00:59:04.387 --> 00:59:06.917
the human touch and experience and so on.

00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:08.479
So you just gotta ride that wave.

00:59:08.896 --> 00:59:13.612
Uh, and, um, you know, we've had a bunch of
creators ask us to do,

00:59:13.638 --> 00:59:18.279
like, these, like, HeyGen-type, uh- Yeah …
videos where, like, it's

00:59:18.284 --> 00:59:22.245
them, but they're not really talking, and it's
still kind of robotic.

00:59:22.630 --> 00:59:24.718
I would say it's getting closer.

00:59:25.205 --> 00:59:27.637
It's getting to the place- Mm-hmm … where you
can substitute.

00:59:27.637 --> 00:59:31.350
To your point, maybe this is where you're going,
and I think we're gonna see that.

00:59:31.569 --> 00:59:31.743
Yeah.

00:59:31.764 --> 00:59:36.693
And my instinct is, is you're gonna have to have
disclosures

00:59:36.742 --> 00:59:40.083
around, uh, how much AI is used.

00:59:40.194 --> 00:59:44.136
Or is the disclosure gonna have to be really,
uh, what's human?

00:59:44.323 --> 00:59:44.705
Mm-hmm.

00:59:45.331 --> 00:59:46.205
Uh, the opposite.

00:59:46.311 --> 00:59:46.613
Yeah, right.

00:59:46.613 --> 00:59:48.808
Instead of what's AI- Yeah … it's gonna become
what's human.

00:59:49.196 --> 00:59:52.576
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think all this is gonna
happen, and then

00:59:52.585 --> 00:59:54.422
you're gonna see the split world.

00:59:54.900 --> 01:00:00.997
And then where that goes, I think depends on
where the AI companies can take it and

01:00:00.997 --> 01:00:05.556
where humanity wants to fit AI, and we're
figuring that out as we go right now.

01:00:05.803 --> 01:00:05.926
Mm-hmm.

01:00:05.930 --> 01:00:06.245
So.

01:00:07.055 --> 01:00:10.236
Yeah, and AI could really s- it, it could really
solve a lot

01:00:10.238 --> 01:00:13.893
of the- Yeah … the, the, the struggles that a
individual creator

01:00:14.733 --> 01:00:14.871
Yeah

01:00:14.871 --> 01:00:16.213
… in being able to

01:00:17.149 --> 01:00:17.457
Yeah.

01:00:17.811 --> 01:00:22.832
I mean, I, I actually… So I'm super into this
uh, area.

01:00:22.870 --> 01:00:23.013
Yeah.

01:00:23.034 --> 01:00:25.444
So I did my graduate work in philosophy,
actually.

01:00:25.444 --> 01:00:29.190
And, uh, j- so I- Oh … read a, a ton in
philosophy of mind and so on.

01:00:29.562 --> 01:00:33.190
And there's this book, uh, actually, it just
came out to be a movie that

01:00:33.702 --> 01:00:37.577
supposedly d- was a, either a bad adaptation, I
haven't seen it, but

01:00:37.582 --> 01:00:43.152
called "Klara and the Sun." Uh, it's, um,
Ishiguro, very good, uh, I think

01:00:43.152 --> 01:00:45.004
he's a Nobel Prize-winning author.

01:00:45.061 --> 01:00:46.768
"Klara and the Sun," I highly recommend it.

01:00:46.768 --> 01:00:50.485
It's probably the best book I've writ- read in
the past, like, five years.

01:00:50.993 --> 01:00:56.848
Uh, and, um, it's about a future, uh, world
where, uh,

01:00:56.849 --> 01:00:58.397
you have artificial friends.

01:00:58.871 --> 01:01:02.961
And there's this part in the book, uh, spoiler
alert, where the AI,

01:01:03.153 --> 01:01:09.142
uh, essentially says to the human, "I could
never do a certain… I

01:01:09.143 --> 01:01:13.668
couldn't substitute for a human." And I think,
um, and I think that's

01:01:13.673 --> 01:01:15.468
kind of where this is all going.

01:01:15.470 --> 01:01:18.926
Maybe I'm biased because of the book, but, Yeah
… but I highly recommend

01:01:18.927 --> 01:01:20.402
it for anyone who's into this.

01:01:20.412 --> 01:01:25.731
It was actually a very, uh, uh… it was a good
view of the future, I think.

01:01:26.167 --> 01:01:29.830
Um, or it just makes you think of what, what we
have versus what

01:01:29.978 --> 01:01:31.108
AIs have

01:01:31.989 --> 01:01:37.084
And I do see kind of like quite a spectrum of
how people are perceiving,

01:01:37.668 --> 01:01:39.345
the type of content that they create.

01:01:39.345 --> 01:01:43.404
I know I've been experimenting a lot with doing
content out in

01:01:43.404 --> 01:01:44.387
the real world- Mm-hmm … right?

01:01:44.448 --> 01:01:48.527
Not in a studio or not in StreamYard and- Mm-hmm
… other,

01:01:48.696 --> 01:01:50.932
other types of, uh, environments.

01:01:50.956 --> 01:01:55.343
And it's interesting, uh, that there's huge
traction

01:01:55.343 --> 01:01:55.853
in

01:01:55.988 --> 01:02:00.283
getting out in the real world- Yeah … and doing,
doing your show,

01:02:00.363 --> 01:02:01.382
you know

01:02:01.454 --> 01:02:02.693
somewhere that's,

01:02:03.447 --> 01:02:04.063
unusual.

01:02:04.123 --> 01:02:04.409
Yeah.

01:02:04.633 --> 01:02:05.050
Right.

01:02:05.050 --> 01:02:07.329
And, and what… Like, bringing it back to
YouTube, so they've

01:02:07.330 --> 01:02:10.634
got live streaming, they've got- Yeah … all… You
know, I think, and,

01:02:10.777 --> 01:02:11.327
and back to

01:02:11.332 --> 01:02:11.901
the original

01:02:11.901 --> 01:02:13.087
point- Well, is live even gonna last here?

01:02:13.089 --> 01:02:16.632
Or- Yeah … is it going to be like that proof of
life concept?

01:02:16.721 --> 01:02:17.118
Yeah.

01:02:17.563 --> 01:02:18.330
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:19.350 --> 01:02:20.128
No, I mean,

01:02:20.128 --> 01:02:21.803
it's- Or is it even gonna be proof?

01:02:22.817 --> 01:02:23.053
Yeah.

01:02:23.331 --> 01:02:25.273
Well, we'll see where it all goes.

01:02:26.476 --> 01:02:32.979
Yeah, I, I came across a new platform out in,
uh, Seattle that is, it's called, uh,

01:02:33.875 --> 01:02:35.603
NuanceLabs.ai.

01:02:36.128 --> 01:02:36.234
Oh.

01:02:36.285 --> 01:02:40.619
And it's a, it's a platform that's specifically
working to build

01:02:41.958 --> 01:02:42.719
human,

01:02:44.753 --> 01:02:47.268
kind of conversational video

01:02:47.993 --> 01:02:48.257
right?

01:02:48.257 --> 01:02:48.316
Mm-hmm.

01:02:48.318 --> 01:02:54.088
So I could conceivably have a, uh, AI of Neil
here that I could be having a

01:02:54.089 --> 01:02:57.294
conversation with, and it would look exactly
like Neil, and it would- Mm-hmm

01:02:57.294 --> 01:02:58.249
have the inflections

01:02:58.249 --> 01:02:58.840
and the

01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:01.441
mannerisms, and it wouldn't have that latency-

01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:01.862
Mm-hmm

01:03:01.903 --> 01:03:04.319
… um, that has been so associated with

01:03:05.939 --> 01:03:07.949
' Cause I've ha- I've done episodes of this show
with

01:03:07.949 --> 01:03:08.533
uh

01:03:08.708 --> 01:03:10.537
AI as my co-host before- Mm-hmm,

01:03:10.776 --> 01:03:11.084
mm-hmm

01:03:11.084 --> 01:03:13.564
… just to play around with it, but it was all
audio, right?

01:03:13.564 --> 01:03:13.848
Yeah.

01:03:14.089 --> 01:03:16.679
But we're coming into a time when the AIs are
getting good enough

01:03:18.129 --> 01:03:18.950
Do that- Be video

01:03:18.950 --> 01:03:19.720
same experience with video.

01:03:19.742 --> 01:03:20.067
Yeah.

01:03:20.301 --> 01:03:20.572
And-

01:03:20.588 --> 01:03:21.392
I think so.

01:03:21.549 --> 01:03:25.481
Uh, and the AI ones, I mean, I've seen some of
these episodes.

01:03:25.482 --> 01:03:27.061
I think Reid Hoffman did one.

01:03:27.068 --> 01:03:29.093
There's some philosophers- Yeah, I saw that same
one … have done a-

01:03:29.125 --> 01:03:29.662
Yeah, I saw

01:03:29.662 --> 01:03:29.685
that somewhere.

01:03:29.685 --> 01:03:30.804
Yeah, so there's been- That was

01:03:30.804 --> 01:03:31.815
like a year and a half ago.

01:03:31.822 --> 01:03:32.891
Yeah, it's been- That was a long time ago.

01:03:32.904 --> 01:03:33.314
Yeah.

01:03:33.497 --> 01:03:33.707
Yeah.

01:03:33.815 --> 01:03:38.272
And, and to my point, you know, they're, they're
interesting, but then again,

01:03:38.699 --> 01:03:41.953
you know, I don't know if… I don't know where we
are on the Coke/Pepsi

01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:45.568
test on this, like- … whether you knew or didn't
know, but, like, you… it

01:03:45.569 --> 01:03:48.223
made you, made you not appreciate it.

01:03:48.272 --> 01:03:53.853
It, it, it's awe, it- it's awe-inducing or,
like, it's amazing in one way- Yeah

01:03:53.860 --> 01:03:56.119
but the content just doesn't land the same way.

01:03:56.120 --> 01:03:58.542
And maybe that's our human biases and so on.

01:03:58.588 --> 01:03:58.827
Yeah.

01:03:58.872 --> 01:03:59.674
I get that.

01:04:00.002 --> 01:04:04.335
But again, I think that gulf is gonna take a
while to- Yeah … for people to

01:04:04.348 --> 01:04:08.885
get over, and that's, you know, that's the
opportunity still for creators.

01:04:09.533 --> 01:04:14.265
And, I wouldn't- I mean, uh, I'm not the first
person who said this.

01:04:14.274 --> 01:04:15.834
This is the best time for creators

01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:17.842
ever to be out there. Uh

01:04:18.041 --> 01:04:23.639
and the platforms- Yeah … are fighting over your
content and, and monetization.

01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:25.956
We haven't talked about monetization, at least

01:04:26.030 --> 01:04:27.017
with competing with YouTube

01:04:27.208 --> 01:04:30.470
but that's, that's probably the other- Right …
leg of the stool-

01:04:30.531 --> 01:04:30.675
It

01:04:30.677 --> 01:04:35.022
is … that and you mentioned early on around
ownership of your audience,

01:04:35.022 --> 01:04:40.758
that's, that's an angle That none of the big
platforms want to actually

01:04:40.758 --> 01:04:42.879
let go of, for obvious reasons.

01:04:42.993 --> 01:04:46.044
But that's an opportunity if someone can figure
out that.

01:04:46.044 --> 01:04:49.398
And obviously you have Substack and Beehiiv kind
of, or, uh,

01:04:51.108 --> 01:04:52.380
Patreon too, I guess.

01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:56.018
But you have a bunch of platforms that are
trying to work that angle.

01:04:56.070 --> 01:04:58.225
I think A- AI could have a role in that-

01:04:58.264 --> 01:04:58.628
Mm-hmm

01:04:58.813 --> 01:04:59.359
… at some point.

01:04:59.368 --> 01:04:59.393
Mm-hmm.

01:04:59.402 --> 01:04:59.874
How so?

01:05:00.368 --> 01:05:02.272
they could create those direct relationships.

01:05:02.272 --> 01:05:03.435
I mean

01:05:03.629 --> 01:05:06.740
I think RSS still has- And circumvent and-
Right.

01:05:07.004 --> 01:05:10.122
I think RSS still has a, a way of

01:05:10.122 --> 01:05:10.854
doing this

01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:16.779
I know Adam Curry talks about that he, he wrote
his own consumption app-

01:05:16.838 --> 01:05:17.202
Mm-hmm

01:05:17.202 --> 01:05:19.215
… [Mic bleed]

01:05:19.321 --> 01:05:23.424
is able to access all the content that he wants
to consume- Mm-hmm … through RSS.

01:05:23.577 --> 01:05:23.917
Mm-hmm.

01:05:24.183 --> 01:05:26.401
I, I wrote- Um, you know- I wrote my own
consumption app as well

01:05:26.401 --> 01:05:26.724
right through

01:05:26.733 --> 01:05:27.256
the AI.

01:05:27.275 --> 01:05:28.986
He built his own app- Yeah … inside AI.

01:05:29.236 --> 01:05:29.540
Yeah.

01:05:29.565 --> 01:05:30.281
Same with me.

01:05:30.321 --> 01:05:33.433
I mean, uh, you know- Yeah … I'm a big… I think
you probably saw

01:05:33.433 --> 01:05:36.695
it or we might have talked about it, but I, we,
we built this prototype

01:05:36.696 --> 01:05:39.193
called TLDL, Too Long, Didn't Listen.

01:05:39.193 --> 01:05:39.233
Too Long, Didn't Listen.

01:05:40.885 --> 01:05:44.489
But, and people are f- I'm gonna probably run
this- That never happens on this show

01:05:44.489 --> 01:05:47.573
this episode through this too, but, like, I, I'm
at the point

01:05:47.604 --> 01:05:53.409
of, uh, content uh, um, over capacity on my
ability to consume.

01:05:53.451 --> 01:05:53.801
Mm-hmm.

01:05:53.857 --> 01:06:00.360
I'm, uh, uh… And so what I… And I've never liked
the text-based summaries

01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:05.456
or scanning of a headline because- Mm-hmm … the
magic of podcasting

01:06:05.470 --> 01:06:10.351
is the actual audio, uh, or, you know, or the
video at times, right?

01:06:10.351 --> 01:06:14.682
But it's- Yeah … it's text-based representation
of

01:06:14.683 --> 01:06:17.302
this is just not the same value.

01:06:17.470 --> 01:06:17.639
Right.

01:06:17.677 --> 01:06:21.623
And so, and so, so I bu- we built this little
thing that gives

01:06:21.624 --> 01:06:23.199
you little clips of podcasts.

01:06:23.563 --> 01:06:27.732
And so I built my own wrapper on top of it that,
like, every morning,

01:06:27.744 --> 01:06:29.778
I get all the shows I follow.

01:06:30.099 --> 01:06:32.438
I get little snippets of every show-

01:06:32.605 --> 01:06:32.983
Mm-hmm

01:06:33.022 --> 01:06:36.281
so I can decide what is worth listening to that
day.

01:06:36.651 --> 01:06:38.896
So it's… And I, like, it's amazing.

01:06:38.928 --> 01:06:42.059
I follow, like, 30, 40 shows now.

01:06:42.428 --> 01:06:45.020
Most of those shows, I would've never

01:06:46.416 --> 01:06:49.455
because there's just no way to stay on top of
shows.

01:06:49.824 --> 01:06:54.220
Yeah … and I've listened to episodes, obscure
episodes from stuff I've followed,

01:06:54.697 --> 01:06:59.295
that, like, now I can just never feel guilty
about throwing, hitting follow.

01:06:59.547 --> 01:07:01.991
Uh, because before I was like,

01:07:01.991 --> 01:07:02.585
oh, I can't

01:07:02.715 --> 01:07:06.778
follow another show." Like, I just- Yeah … too
much noise, et cetera.

01:07:06.803 --> 01:07:07.731
But now I, now I

01:07:07.731 --> 01:07:09.546
can kind of quickly just

01:07:09.748 --> 01:07:13.365
And so I think that, again, back to g- back to,
you know, the point,

01:07:13.806 --> 01:07:19.595
like, the podcast consumption platforms can beat
YouTube Through

01:07:19.607 --> 01:07:21.753
experiences like this where- Mm-hmm

01:07:21.753 --> 01:07:25.173
YouTube, again, they could build something like
this, but it's

01:07:25.173 --> 01:07:29.108
really hard for that to work across all the
different types of video.

01:07:29.489 --> 01:07:29.928
Who knows?

01:07:29.928 --> 01:07:29.948
We'll see.

01:07:29.948 --> 01:07:31.560
Well, and all these different platforms too.

01:07:31.564 --> 01:07:37.881
I mean- Yeah … podcasting in its roots is a one
publish to many

01:07:37.913 --> 01:07:39.428
consumption- Mm-hmm … experiences.

01:07:39.456 --> 01:07:39.845
Mm-hmm.

01:07:40.104 --> 01:07:42.028
And I think that has a lot of power,

01:07:43.228 --> 01:07:45.624
and it's, not a power that YouTube

01:07:46.773 --> 01:07:51.872
I mean, now granted, they have a huge number of
apps that they've installed

01:07:51.873 --> 01:07:53.678
in other devices and other platforms

01:07:53.678 --> 01:07:54.585
and

01:07:54.585 --> 01:07:56.338
things like that for their platform.

01:07:56.934 --> 01:08:04.038
But to have that diverse distribution, you know,
uh, is I think the big question

01:08:04.040 --> 01:08:06.341
I have in my mind is will a platform like

01:08:06.688 --> 01:08:07.949
Instagram

01:08:08.139 --> 01:08:09.348
if we publish,

01:08:10.950 --> 01:08:16.058
HLS streams or we publish video into RSS, if we
really double down on

01:08:16.058 --> 01:08:16.812
that

01:08:16.969 --> 01:08:20.693
will we potentially see these other platforms
embrace it, uh-

01:08:20.693 --> 01:08:21.313
I think so.

01:08:21.352 --> 01:08:22.465
They want the content.

01:08:22.833 --> 01:08:24.498
I mean, I think, I think they will.

01:08:24.751 --> 01:08:26.504
And, or there'll be tools like us.

01:08:26.533 --> 01:08:29.812
Like, you know, we publish … I think we just
pulled the measure.

01:08:29.817 --> 01:08:32.997
We published almost three million videos to
YouTube over our

01:08:32.997 --> 01:08:34.991
lifetime, and many more to social.

01:08:34.991 --> 01:08:35.031
But you're a great

01:08:35.031 --> 01:08:37.781
example of that kind of publish once and it
goes-

01:08:37.799 --> 01:08:38.014
Yeah

01:08:38.014 --> 01:08:38.547
a lot of places.

01:08:38.568 --> 01:08:39.264
Exactly.

01:08:39.327 --> 01:08:39.486
Yeah.

01:08:39.492 --> 01:08:40.006
Exactly.

01:08:40.054 --> 01:08:42.368
And so we did that for v- audio to video.

01:08:42.505 --> 01:08:42.734
Right.

01:08:42.804 --> 01:08:44.699
And now doing it for video to video.

01:08:44.988 --> 01:08:49.059
And so, like, I think these things will start,
you know, like, hopefully

01:08:49.063 --> 01:08:51.081
positive for us as a company, you know?

01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:53.035
Like, I think- Yeah … they're all happening.

01:08:53.051 --> 01:08:57.499
I think if you've got … If a creator wants to
get to audience on

01:08:57.500 --> 01:09:00.589
certain platforms, the tools will get built, and
hopefully they'll

01:09:00.607 --> 01:09:02.408
just get more economical over time.

01:09:02.419 --> 01:09:06.975
Or to my point earlier, the platforms themselves
will subsidize this stuff.

01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:12.033
Uh, and that's what happened with the, the
initial stuff with YouTube for us.

01:09:12.065 --> 01:09:17.125
And like, I just think that's, that's what has
to happen for people to

01:09:17.238 --> 01:09:18.509
compete. Mm-hmm

01:09:19.238 --> 01:09:25.084
So what's the best pathway for a, uh, a content
creator to work

01:09:25.086 --> 01:09:26.988
with, uh, the Headliner app?

01:09:27.917 --> 01:09:29.230
Well, it's simpl- uh, it's simple.

01:09:29.230 --> 01:09:31.638
It's actually … We have a very generous free
tier.

01:09:31.638 --> 01:09:32.124
So-

01:09:32.333 --> 01:09:32.438
Yeah

01:09:32.438 --> 01:09:34.841
… like, no- uh, just sign up and use it.

01:09:34.871 --> 01:09:38.406
Uh, we've got a ton of stuff for video creators
now.

01:09:38.699 --> 01:09:41.372
Obviously our, our kind of roots are in audio.

01:09:41.704 --> 01:09:42.460
Mm-hmm.

01:09:42.493 --> 01:09:42.723
Right.

01:09:42.795 --> 01:09:48.005
But, uh, but now o- o- l- over the past year,
year and a half, we've

01:09:48.006 --> 01:09:52.280
really invested in video becoming a first-class
citizen in Headliner too.

01:09:52.322 --> 01:09:52.559
Uh- Yeah.

01:09:52.867 --> 01:09:56.718
You know, like, uh, just as we tried to get
audio to be first-class

01:09:56.718 --> 01:10:00.602
citizens through video, we, we now needed to do
the inverse and have

01:10:00.608 --> 01:10:04.714
video become a first-class citizen i- in- inside
of our app, kind of the

01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:06.491
inverse of what happened on the web.

01:10:06.863 --> 01:10:10.505
But we've done a tremendous amount of work
there, and we're continuing

01:10:10.508 --> 01:10:11.807
to do a ton of work there.

01:10:12.164 --> 01:10:18.018
And so our hope is … Look, we think creators
make amazing content.

01:10:18.373 --> 01:10:21.047
Mm. Most people in the world don't know it
exists.

01:10:21.425 --> 01:10:21.672
Right.

01:10:21.710 --> 01:10:26.895
That is the … That is why Headliner exists to
try to solve

01:10:26.906 --> 01:10:31.248
for all that content that people create, get it
in front of audience.

01:10:31.628 --> 01:10:33.801
Uh, that is what discovery is.

01:10:34.092 --> 01:10:34.136
Right.

01:10:34.136 --> 01:10:37.962
Go to where the audience is so that they can
discover your content.

01:10:37.979 --> 01:10:42.011
And so whether it be social or YouTube, other
video platforms

01:10:42.015 --> 01:10:46.454
now- Mm-hmm … as well, uh, or across the web, we
want to get your

01:10:46.454 --> 01:10:47.431
content out there

01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:48.714
So that's what we've always

01:10:48.784 --> 01:10:50.573
been focused on

01:10:50.683 --> 01:10:54.974
Do you see a time when you're going to push
content into AI platforms?

01:10:56.664 --> 01:10:57.823
Uh, say more

01:10:59.627 --> 01:11:04.386
I just think as people replace their search
processes- Oh, yeah, yeah

01:11:04.386 --> 01:11:07.274
um, with AI queries.

01:11:07.954 --> 01:11:10.338
Do you see a pathway for

01:11:10.380 --> 01:11:11.600
content discovery, um

01:11:12.253 --> 01:11:14.836
that you could have a, a role in with Headliner?

01:11:14.925 --> 01:11:20.876
I don't know if Headliner's the right right
company to tackle that.

01:11:21.155 --> 01:11:21.362
Okay.

01:11:21.386 --> 01:11:24.011
Uh, I do, I do think it's a big

01:11:24.270 --> 01:11:25.079
opportunity though

01:11:25.262 --> 01:11:28.630
It's something I've been trying to figure out a
little bit.

01:11:28.788 --> 01:11:30.265
I- I've been thinking about it more and more.

01:11:30.276 --> 01:11:31.127
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:31.228 --> 01:11:34.839
It's like, well, w- w- what would I type- Yeah …
into AI to, to find-

01:11:34.842 --> 01:11:35.178
Yeah

01:11:35.424 --> 01:11:37.351
… shows that I may have an interest in-
Definitely … right?

01:11:37.435 --> 01:11:40.869
Yeah, and that, and that was kind of the, one of
the points in the blog post

01:11:40.869 --> 01:11:42.329
I mentioned- Yeah … the AI search.

01:11:42.719 --> 01:11:47.237
Uh, but we, we wanna hit people wherever they
are.

01:11:47.237 --> 01:11:47.247
Yeah.

01:11:47.247 --> 01:11:50.952
I think AI search might be… I don't know if it's
the right opportunity

01:11:50.954 --> 01:11:54.353
for us, but I'm definitely- I definitely need to
look at it more.

01:11:54.699 --> 01:11:57.877
Uh, the one that's really been big over the past
year for us

01:11:57.890 --> 01:12:00.098
is getting us across the web.

01:12:00.098 --> 01:12:05.405
So any article on the web, like any news
publisher and content, we can, we

01:12:05.407 --> 01:12:10.612
can essentially advertise your podcast on any
website that accepts ads.

01:12:10.916 --> 01:12:13.133
So, you know, g- it just all goes back to

01:12:15.101 --> 01:12:15.129
Right.

01:12:15.129 --> 01:12:19.102
Getting your podcast in front of the right
person at the right time,

01:12:19.209 --> 01:12:19.726
which

01:12:19.726 --> 01:12:21.302
is really what discovery's about.

01:12:21.335 --> 01:12:24.939
And so we'll figure out whatever medium it is,
and maybe it's

01:12:24.941 --> 01:12:26.787
gonna be the LLMs in the future.

01:12:26.845 --> 01:12:27.877
I'll get back to you on that.

01:12:28.324 --> 01:12:28.684
Okay.

01:12:28.731 --> 01:12:29.248
Fair enough.

01:12:30.134 --> 01:12:32.352
Well, Neil, uh, thank you so much

01:12:32.375 --> 01:12:33.190
for- No, thank you

01:12:33.196 --> 01:12:33.951
… joining me on the New

01:12:33.953 --> 01:12:34.200
Media Show.

01:12:34.200 --> 01:12:38.340
Well, it's a pleasure to do this, uh, instead of
a bar at Podcast Movement or

01:12:38.340 --> 01:12:42.383
something- Right, exactly … uh- Yeah … to do it
in person and on your show.

01:12:42.415 --> 01:12:46.924
Um, and I appreciate, uh, all you've done for
podcasting, Rob.

01:12:46.984 --> 01:12:52.127
I know you've been at, uh, the kind of forefront
of it for, for decades now.

01:12:52.166 --> 01:12:52.574
Oh, yeah.

01:12:52.641 --> 01:12:54.742
Uh, long w- long before me too.

01:12:54.778 --> 01:12:58.480
Uh, but some of you guys have, uh, brought in
podcasting to where

01:12:58.480 --> 01:12:59.698
it is, and you're one of them.

01:12:59.699 --> 01:13:00.500
And so I really

01:13:00.500 --> 01:13:01.015
appreciate

01:13:01.198 --> 01:13:03.091
you and what you've done for it, so thank you.

01:13:03.671 --> 01:13:08.283
Well, well thank you, and I, I appreciate Ginni
Media Studios for- Yes

01:13:08.830 --> 01:13:10.335
for hosting us today and-

01:13:10.339 --> 01:13:11.062
Come check it out.

01:13:11.062 --> 01:13:11.117
Yeah.

01:13:11.117 --> 01:13:12.172
It's a great place to-

01:13:12.173 --> 01:13:12.673
Yeah, and, uh- … to

01:13:12.676 --> 01:13:14.752
record your podcast, audio or video.

01:13:15.003 --> 01:13:18.613
And it's ab- only like a couple minute walk from
Grand Central- Yeah, there

01:13:18.618 --> 01:13:19.758
you go … in New York City, so.

01:13:20.056 --> 01:13:20.086
Yes.

01:13:20.086 --> 01:13:23.020
So set up a, a recording session

01:13:23.020 --> 01:13:23.720
with Jenny

01:13:24.793 --> 01:13:26.903
So well Neil, thanks again.

01:13:26.972 --> 01:13:27.498
Thank you.

01:13:27.506 --> 01:13:27.929
Thank you.

01:13:27.934 --> 01:13:31.340
Thank you everybody out there for s- spending
the hour

01:13:31.340 --> 01:13:32.638
plus with, with us today.

01:13:32.638 --> 01:13:33.124
I appreciate it.

01:13:33.125 --> 01:13:37.784
I'm gonna cut this episode down and have a
highlight version too, but but yeah.

01:13:37.923 --> 01:13:42.366
Thank you, and go to, go to newmediashow.com and

01:13:42.366 --> 01:13:43.571
check out all the archives.

01:13:43.572 --> 01:13:45.457
I've had lots of interesting conversations

01:13:45.457 --> 01:13:46.000
with

01:13:46.173 --> 01:13:49.772
lots of, uh, leaders in the media space right

01:13:49.917 --> 01:13:50.668
now. And

01:13:50.679 --> 01:13:53.867
and, I think there's some interesting insights
about where all this is going,

01:13:54.037 --> 01:13:56.096
So

01:13:56.118 --> 01:13:56.803
I appreciate it.

01:13:56.866 --> 01:13:57.277
Thank you