In Episode 677 of the New Media Show, host Rob Greenlee welcomes Dan Granger, founder and CEO of Oxford Road, for a detailed conversation about how personality-led media is changing what brands buy, how audiences are measured, and what the podcast industry must do to support its next stage of growth.
Audiences increasingly follow people rather than traditional media channels.
A trusted personality can carry an audience across podcasts, YouTube, livestreams, newsletters, social platforms, communities, events, and direct business relationships.
Advertisers, however, still tend to purchase and measure those formats as separate media channels.
That disconnect is becoming one of the largest challenges facing creator media. A creator may record a single conversation and distribute it across multiple platforms, yet each platform reports exposure differently. Advertisers are then left trying to compare downloads, streams, video views, watch time, impressions, attribution data, and host-read performance without a consistent standard.
Dan has spent his career connecting advertisers with personality-driven media. Oxford Road now describes its work as building performance systems across audio, video, creator, and programmatic media, with Dan serving as the company’s CEO.
The conversation begins with Oxford Road’s growing investment in bringing brands, creators, platforms, and media leaders together in person.
Dan explains how the company’s CAO Summit developed from the idea of a “Chief Audio Officer,” the person inside a brand responsible for making audio advertising work. That responsibility may belong to a founder, marketing leader, media buyer, or growth executive rather than someone with a formal audio title.
The CAO Summit was designed as a peer-learning environment where advertisers could speak openly with other advertisers about measurement, attribution, creative performance, and the practical problems preventing brands from spending more in podcasts and creator media. Oxford Road continues to position the CAO Summit as a meeting point for the marketers, platforms, and creators shaping what it calls “Podcast+” media.
They also discuss the Independent Podcast and Creator Awards, also known as the Indie PaC Awards. The program was created to recognize independently owned creators and shows at a time when consolidation continues across podcasting and digital media.
Dan argues that independent creators remain central to the value of podcasting.
Creators who maintain closer relationships with their audiences, retain more editorial control, and deliver strong results for advertisers. Oxford Road’s own published ORBIT rankings show that independent shows account for a large share of its strongest-performing podcast inventory.
Defining an independent creator is difficult, though.
A creator may own the intellectual property while accepting a minimum guarantee from a platform. A show may be represented by a large network without being owned by that company. A successful personality may have substantial corporate support while retaining full editorial control.
The Indie PaC criteria attempt to consider who owns the content, whether the show publishes consistently, and whether the podcast or creator channel is a central part of the person’s business rather than a side project created primarily to support an existing celebrity career. The inaugural awards were announced as an event focused on creator ownership and independently produced media.
That discussion leads into the episode’s central theme: personalities are becoming media businesses.
Creators once waited for a network, publisher, studio, or broadcaster to select them.
Today, personalities can build audiences directly and expand across formats without waiting for a traditional gatekeeper. Their name, voice, perspective, and relationship with the audience can become the media’s primary brand.
Dan believes advertising dollars will continue moving toward these creator-led environments. A brand may no longer purchase only a podcast placement or a YouTube integration. It may sponsor the creator across several surfaces and negotiate rights to reuse the resulting content in paid campaigns. That changes the asset being purchased.
The value can include the creator’s audience relationship, intellectual property, content, distribution reach, endorsement, likeness, and permission to repurpose the campaign. Dan sees trust as the element that connects those assets.
Host-read advertising remains especially important because the recommendation comes through a person the audience already knows.
The strongest integrations allow the creator to speak naturally, test the product, acknowledge limitations, and explain why it may be useful.
Rob and Dan share early examples from the podcasting market in which creators criticize parts of a sponsor’s offering during paid integrations. That apparent risk can make the rest of the endorsement more believable because the audience hears an honest response rather than polished marketing language.
The discussion also examines where an advertisement appears inside an episode.
Dan is sharply critical of post-roll advertising because much of the audience has already left by the time the ad plays. Rob and Dan also discuss pre-rolls, mid-rolls, dynamic insertion, programmatic advertising, and the effects of placing too many ads in a single episode.
Oxford Road has published PodLoad research comparing the number of advertising units placed within shows.
Dan argues that an impression in a program carrying 6 minutes of advertising per hour should not automatically be valued the same as one in a show carrying 20 minutes of advertising. Excessive ad load can weaken attention and reduce campaign performance.
Brand values and suitability add another layer.
Dan believes advertisers should understand the values they claim to support and make intentional decisions about the creators and environments they fund.
Dan also believes brands became overly reactive during the height of the brand-safety debate and then moved too far in the opposite direction.
The goal should be a durable position that considers business outcomes alongside genuine organizational values. Audience demographics matter, but the creator’s tone, worldview, conduct, and credibility can also affect whether the partnership makes sense.
The second half of the episode turns to the Alliance for Measurement in Podcasting, known as AMP.
Dan convened AMP as a one-year industry task force focused on three core questions:
– What qualifies as a podcast?
– How should exposure be counted across audio and video?
– How should advertising results be attributed?
AMP includes representatives from platforms, advertisers, publishers, creators, agencies, and measurement companies. Its stated purpose is to develop voluntary cross-platform standards that make podcast inventory easier to compare, buy, sell, and measure.
One of the group’s most discussed recommendations is moving toward a 30-second play threshold.
Dan explains that he is less concerned with whether the correct threshold is exactly 30 seconds or 60 seconds. The larger problem is that different platforms use different definitions. That inconsistency prevents advertisers from confidently comparing performance across audio and video.
The 30-second recommendation reflects what AMP members believed had the greatest chance of broad adoption. A workable shared standard can move the market forward even when it does not represent every participant’s preferred method.
Dan compares the current landscape to islands that speak different languages. Each platform may have useful data, but the absence of a common language makes commerce harder. AMP is trying to provide a shared framework without requiring every platform to abandon its existing internal analytics.
The group is preparing the AMP Accords as a framework covering podcast classification, exposure, and advertising effectiveness. The official AMP site identifies Oxford Road as the organization that convened the process.
Rob and Dan then take on the most persistent question in podcasting: What is a podcast?
Two areas continue to create friction.
- One is whether a podcast must be distributed through RSS.
- The other is whether the medium must be primarily audio.
Dan believes RSS represents important principles, including open access and flexible distribution.
Dan does not believe RSS should be the only requirement determining whether a show qualifies as a podcast.
His practical test is whether the experience still works when the audience closes its eyes.
Video can enhance a podcast without disqualifying it. A program that requires constant visual attention will remain open to debate, but he argues that advertisers need enough consistency to conduct business.
Rob explains that RSS has increasingly become an industry-level, server-to-server distribution system. Many newer creators do not know where to find their RSS feed because hosting platforms now handle most submission and syndication work through dashboards and direct platform connections.
Audiences care even less about the technical delivery method. They call content a podcast based on how the experience looks and feels.
The conversation also covers Apple’s HLS video implementation. Rob supports the opportunity for high-quality streaming video but questions Apple’s use of a direct submission process rather than placing the HLS stream inside the open RSS feed. He believes alternative enclosures could enable the same video stream to reach more podcast apps without limiting it to a single platform.
Dan views HLS as broadly compatible with AMP’s goal of measuring real consumption across audio and video. He also recognizes that open distribution, platform control, creator ownership, and practical commercial adoption will continue pulling the market in different directions.
The episode closes with a look at what may happen to legacy media.
Dan does not expect established media companies to disappear quietly. Many still have capital, infrastructure, distribution, and the ability to acquire or support major personalities.
Dan expects some traditional media companies to adapt by functioning more like houses that provide resources to talent while allowing the personality to remain the visible brand.
Dan also expects renewed opportunity in local media, which could return through creator-led, community-focused models rather than traditional newspapers or broadcast stations.
Artificial intelligence will also become part of this future.
Dan sees value in personalized and AI-supported content, provided audiences can clearly understand when material is authentic, synthetic, or manipulated.
Rob argues that transparent labeling, human accountability, and audience awareness will become increasingly important as AI personalities and automated media gain adoption.
Episode 677 captures a media market in the middle of a structural change. Personalities are carrying audiences across platforms. Advertisers want creator trust while also demanding dependable measurement. Platforms want control over distribution, while creators want ownership and flexibility.
The companies that bring those interests together will help determine how creator media is bought, measured, and scaled.
Topics Covered in This Episode
– Why personalities are becoming media companies
– The CAO Summit and brand-to-brand learning
– Connecting advertisers directly with creators
– The purpose of the Indie PaC Awards
– How to define an independent creator
– Why independent shows can outperform larger networks
– Creator ownership and editorial control
– Brands shifting budget toward creator media
– Host-read advertising and audience trust
– Why honest creator criticism can improve an endorsement
– Pre-roll, mid-roll, and post-roll advertising
– Podcast ad load and campaign performance
– Brand safety, suitability, and values alignment
– Buying creators across several media platforms
– Licensing creator advertising content
– The Alliance for Measurement in Podcasting
– The proposed 30-second podcast-play standard
– Measuring audio and video through a common framework
– Defining a podcast beyond RSS
– Why video does not automatically change the medium
– Apple HLS video and alternative RSS enclosures
– The IAB’s possible role in industry adoption
– Legacy media adaptation
– The future of local creator media
– AI content, personalization, and disclosure
Chapter Time Stamp Markers:
00:00 Welcome to The New Media Show Episode 677
00:19 How personality-led media is changing the market
03:10 Introducing Dan Granger of Oxford Road
04:00 Why in-person media gatherings matter again
06:14 How the CAO Summit began
07:31 Defining the Chief Audio Officer
09:19 Bringing advertisers and creators together
11:34 The Independent Podcast and Creator Awards
13:38 Deal Room and a new approach to podcast upfronts
14:21 What makes a creator truly independent?
16:06 Joe Rogan, ownership, and platform influence
17:42 Publishing activity and independent-creator criteria
18:20 Creators are taking control of the media world
20:26 Personality-driven media reaches every institution
22:12 Brands move more budget toward creator content
25:16 Trust as the core creator-media asset
27:00 Why host-read advertising still works
28:22 Product testing and honest creator endorsements
30:00 Ad placement, post-rolls, and wasted impressions
31:18 How excessive ad load damages performance
33:00 Rob’s early radio and podcast advertising experience
35:46 Remembering Todd Cochrane
36:46 What advertisers now value in creators
37:00 Buying a personality across multiple platforms
38:17 Licensing creator content for paid campaigns
39:18 Brand safety, values, and commercial outcomes
45:54 Introducing the AMP measurement project
47:37 The 30-second versus 60-second play debate
48:00 Why a shared measurement language matters
51:38 AMP’s one-year mission and planned conclusion
52:25 Why the industry still needs to define a podcast
54:26 RSS, audio, video, and open distribution
56:00 HLS video and cross-platform attribution
57:12 Apple APIs compared with RSS alternative enclosures
59:08 Is RSS still essential to podcasting?
1:00:00 Why consumers no longer think about RSS
1:01:30 Dan’s “works with your eyes closed” podcast test
1:03:37 Why advertisers need a practical definition
1:04:35 AMP’s position on podcasts without RSS
1:05:49 The RSS education gap among newer creators
1:07:43 Building standards that grow the entire market
1:09:22 The IAB’s role in measurement adoption
1:11:18 Will personalities replace legacy media brands?
1:12:27 The possible rebirth of local media
1:13:42 AI content, personalization, and labeling
1:16:00 AMP’s contribution to a more scalable market
1:17:35 Closing remarks
Guest Links: Dan Granger, Founder and CEO, Oxford Road
Oxford Road: https://oxfordroad.com
Dan Granger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dangranger
Alliance for Measurement in Podcasting: https://www.ampaccords.com
Oxford Road Thought Leadership: https://oxfordroad.com/thought-leadership
Oxford Road ORBIT: https://oxfordroad.com/thought-leadership/orbit
Indie PaC Awards Announcement: https://oxfordroad.com/thought-leadership/this-weeks-influencer-introducing-the-inaugural-indie-pac-awards-tiktok-resumes-its-long-form-push-orbit-deems-niche-sports-vips-and-more
Rob Greenlee and New Media Show Links
New Media Show: https://newmediashow.com
New Media Show on YouTube: https://youtube.com/@TheNewMediaShow
New Media Show Audio on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/new-media-show-audio/id392545649
Rob Greenlee Website: https://robgreenlee.com
Rob Greenlee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robgreenlee
Rob Greenlee on YouTube: https://youtube.com/@RobGreenlee
Podcast Hall of Fame: https://podcasthall.com
AI Disclosure Note
I used AI tools to help organize and edit this episode description and create chapter markers from the episode transcript. The editorial direction, final review, industry perspective, and responsibility for the published content remain mine. The discussion reflects the views expressed by my guest and me during the recorded conversation.
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In Episode 672 of the New Media Show, host 2017 Podcast Hall of Famer 
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